Forum / What's the point?

Lynn Beighley
Nov 16, 01:23am

I love this site, still. But I don't see the point anymore.

You post something, it flies by in less than a day. You mention a charity publication you're soliciting submissions for, and it slips past the forum, with only a few of your personal contacts even noticing.

We're all drowned out. Can anything emerge here anymore?

What does fictionaut mean to you? All I hear is static.

James Claffey
Nov 16, 02:39am

it's definitely gone quiet of late. i'm working on a funny story for the anthology. slow going as i don't do funny well. it's strange how FN seems to have constricted appreciably over the last three months or so. very disappointing.

and for me, FN means a good deal. it's the source of so much inspiration, so many new friends, so many prompts for my writing came from here through meg pokrass. i hope it resuscitates. soon. please.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 16, 07:02am

Lynne's complaining fn's too fast. James that it's too slow. Which is it? I think it varies from week to week which is the nature of a random site like this. For me, it's been a life saver. Lieterally. I love it. I'd like it to move even faster. But it all depends on the context of what else is going on in our lives. I could see how this is too fast for someone with many other commitments, and too slow with not as many for various reasons, in my case, health.

Ann Bogle
Nov 16, 09:15am

I tried to write a Hurricane Sandy story tonight. It's not done, but it's a start.

James Claffey
Nov 16, 02:04pm

no, not too slow, not too slow. it's more that there's a certain "lack" of late, missing voices, people busy i'm sure, other issues.

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 16, 02:15pm

Though virtual and electronic, Fictionaut is a community and, like all communities, you have to work in order to make it work.

Consistently.

Though some participate regularly, many do not. Any community's bound to fade without investment by its membership.

What's the point?

You can't lecture or shame people into caring, but you can lead them by example. Sometimes all it takes is a consistent presence and a little human kindness.

Soon to be deleted
Nov 16, 02:35pm

Pointless, per se. But then again isn't everything.

Sam Rasnake
Nov 16, 02:51pm

The climate and voices at Fictionaut have shifted dramatically in the past year.

Agree with JLD that a consistent presence as reader or as writer/poster and reader is the best way to move with that transformation.

Whatever Fictionaut was a year ago is absolutely no more and will never be again. Some will say sad, some will say good riddance. What Fictionaut is, remains to be seen, since we appear to be in the throes of that change. As always, it will be what we make it.

David Ackley
Nov 16, 03:04pm

People who post frequently seem to conveniently forget that doing so affects the time on the first page for others to be read.
I note that there were several instances on today's front page where there were three or four stories published per hour, a striking increase from previously. Some of it is also a result of the number of writers sharing the space, which has increased steadily. Either tend to move things along at hyperspeed and combine to create the effect of 'static' Lynn speaks of.

Soon to be deleted
Nov 16, 03:12pm

This forum topic is about as pointless as Fictionaut, if not more.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 16, 04:54pm

David: On the contrary, those who post frequently move the line along more frequently so MORE, not FEWER, people can post. The more people post, the more people get to post. When no one posts, the line doesn't move and the stagnates. I wasn't here a year ago and would be curious to know how it was different. Was there more feedback?

stephen hastings-king
Nov 16, 05:32pm

I had a big project that ate my summer. It knocked me off f/n: later I stopped making curious little fictions for a while. Now I'm starting to fade back in now after maybe 4-5 months away.

The wall moves much faster than it once did. I'm not sure what I think about that yet. My assumption is that folk routinely post in other places in order to pull readers so that maybe the speed of turn-over on the wall isn't such a big deal?

The trade-off seems to me obvious: if folk key off the wall to read new pieces, then the speed, increased beyond a certain point, works in the opposite direction: everything whizzes by. If you aren't in a position to hang out for extended periods (I am not, for one) then there's doubtless all kinds of maybe interesting stuff that doesn't get seen.

Back to fading.

Matthew Robinson
Nov 16, 05:44pm

I for one would like to participate more as a reader, not just comment on a few things before posting something of my own and eagerly awaiting the favorites.

I might have some stuff to post in the near future, but for now some readin' and commentin'...

Ann Bogle
Nov 16, 05:55pm

The question of "fast" and "slow" is of interest to me because in fiction itself (prose narrative) what interests me most is TIME. Isn't it relative? Aren't we all relatives? Gloria asks whether a year ago, Fictionaut had a different pace or tempo, and Sam reasons (justly) that the Fictionaut of a year ago (and a year before that and before that) is gone. Nevertheless, patterns emerge (at least in estimating my own stories on the website): experimental prose poetry, essays about poetry or writing, essays in general, experimental poems, and longer stories fall lower on my list of contributions. Flash fiction tends to rise higher on the list. That seems true then and now, regardless of types, styles, or trends in participation.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 16, 06:36pm

One solution to stories flying by quickly on the main page is reading the groups. Stories can linger there unmoving for a month. There seems to be no clamor to post on a group and there are so many to choose from. If you think your story didn't get enough face time, post it on a few groups. It makes a difference. I troll the groups all the time and find great things I missed the first time around. It's a highly ignored resource I especially use a lot when no one else at all seems to be posting to that group since 2011.

Darryl Price
Nov 16, 06:38pm

Yeah it's a beast to be sure, and you can put your hand on it on any given day and find a different animal. That's because the ball that it is is always full of every kind of writer with every kind of reason for that, and more are added all the time, and yet it rolls on.Sometimes it rolls into a muddy ditch,sometimes a sudden flower springs out of its head and brightens everything for the moment. Still it fascinates daily because it is ever changing. The other day a friend of mine said I was the only one of his friends he knew who still actively pursued his art year after year after all this time. I don't think that would have even ever been possible without Fictionaut.

RW Spryszak
Nov 16, 06:57pm

I like input, and I do wonder why so few reads, but the truth is I'm putting up The Night Journey because I have a Muslim associate going over the story to check all my references to Islam for accuracy, and she has to be able to read at her leisure and doesn't like when I send big files.

Sounds weird probably, I know, but I need to get the religion right without representing it in a negative light and Faiqa has been a HUGE help. So has Fictionaut, for this purpose.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 16, 07:24pm

Because no one reads long Fictionaut stories, it has also helped me break big ones into flash series which makes editing much easier, though I don't think it has generated more readers. I think FNers dislike series as much as long stories.But it has helped my writing. I think we all use it in different waysl I do have a question though about the numbers. There seem to be something like ten new members every day. Aren't we about to reach infinity? Exactlly how many members are there and will there be a limit. Even here three months I've gone from recognizing to not recognizing names. New members will have different styles. Is there any concern or discussion about whether at some point the problem of access has to do with too many FNers?

J.A. Pak
Nov 16, 07:43pm

I do find it a little overwhelming here with so many stories being published—it's getting to be a lot like a Twitter feed. But I still find it a wonderful place for finding vibrant writing. And for connecting with other writers, even if it's just a quick exchange of thoughts.

RW Spryszak
Nov 16, 07:46pm

It's a definite benefit, somehow, to see your story in a different medium. Working on it is one thing, but for some reason seeing it in published form makes me go "what the hell was I THINKING when I wrote THAT crap?" So the change in medium is a benefit for me too.

Actually I'm kind of counting on the lack of interest in longer pieces. Like I said, 90% of this is for my dogma checker... lol.

Ann Bogle
Nov 16, 08:17pm

The layout (page design) at Fictionaut is beautiful. It displays work so nicely and with the option of seeing it in PDF. We can house work here and determine how many stories are viewable at a time. It is a space where readers can find stories and novel chapters and where writers can host them. I return to read stories and chapters (and poems) that I may have missed.

Ann Bogle
Nov 16, 08:19pm

Cool, Bob, dogma checker! And, Gloria, with sequence stories. I for one love sequence stories. There must be more of us who do.

David Ackley
Nov 16, 08:51pm

Gloria,

I'm not sure how maximizing a shared resource to your own advantage can be construed as helping others, but saying that moving the line along helps more people post on the Front Page is evidently an attempt and simply not true. Every time someone posts a story on Fictionaut it knocks one story off the front page. The more frequently people post, or the more stories are posted, the more are bounced to the second page. Since most of us
are having trouble keeping up with what's posted anyway, the likelihood of anything getting read after it goes off the Front Page diminishes. You or anyone else can post as frequently as you wish--it's a free space--but at least let's us be honest and say the rationale is to display your own work, nothing more.

Dolemite
Nov 16, 09:34pm

"at least let's us be honest"

Matters such as this are *at least* as important as the current list of easy, unpopular girls (who might even go to the dance with you!).

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 16, 09:45pm

David: You can ask the powers that be to change the new post limit from 17 to 30. Then you'd only have to read one of my stories every 30 pages. Seems fair. 17 is arbitrary and rather than blaming me, the fact is, there are more and more people joining the site and so posting faster and faster. What's the longer term plan for limiting this, if any? Can't any of you see the bigger picture here? It's not about me.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 16, 09:51pm

And still no answer to my questions?

How many fictionauters are there?

How many invited every week?

Can there be a moratorium on new invitations until this gets straightened out?

We're rats in a cage and the cage is getting kind of crowded, even if I stop posting completely.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 16, 09:57pm

And yes, David, honestly, my goal is to post my own work. But that's only half of it. My goal is also to be part of a community that reads and comments and encourages each other's work. I read and comment on nearly every story on my page. I owe it to the other readers and enjoy it. I resent the self-centered only implications.

James Claffey
Nov 16, 10:17pm

i echo gloria's comment. yes, the goal is to post your own work, but i think part and parcel of being a member is the ability to interact, comment, encourage, critique the work of the other writers on the forum (if you so choose). time and parenthood limit me on both accounts lately, but i try to comment on as many stories as i can get to within reason.

as far as the front page goes, increasing the limit from 17 to 30 seems reasonable. 17 is a pretty arbitrary number and unless there's a technical reason behind not changing the number, then why not open it up a little. or it could be limited to one post per writer, per week? who knows the perfect answer... anyway, as in other forums like family and the workplace, there are always going to be gripes and grievances between the members, but it's a community, a tremendously supportive one for the most part, and i'd hate that to change. time for this rat to drink some coffee!

Sam Rasnake
Nov 16, 11:25pm

The reasoning behind the limit of 17 is so the boxes for new groups and new members can appear at the bottom of the front page. 17 was a boost from - can't recall exactly - 10 or 12.

James Claffey
Nov 16, 11:26pm

ah!

John Riley
Nov 16, 11:40pm

I'm member of a poetry workshop that limits posts to one a week, every eight days. But the purpose there is to give each poem enough time to be critiqued. Here it's different, at least on the front page, and that took some getting used to. In terms of posting stories it seems to me common courtesy says one shouldn't pile on with story after story in rapid succession. Try to find a ratio of comments per story or some guide to help keep one from attempting to grab too much attention. But if posting stories is helping to keep one motivated to write I guess that's a horse of a different color and Fictionaut is flexible enough to accommodate.

I too would like to know what it was like a year ago. Is the change due to the increase in membership. I'm a recent immigrant myself.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 16, 11:40pm

But when I first started, I thought the limit was 30, which is the whole page of posts and which I honored. Only recently did I discover it was 17. We could still keep the format but change the software settings to 30. That shouldn't be a problem.

John Riley
Nov 16, 11:42pm

After I posted my comment I checked the front page. The bottom story was published 18 hours ago. How does that compare to what was happening a while back?

Dolemite
Nov 16, 11:45pm

"I too would like to know what it was like a year ago."

Then: Club 54, 1978, on a *good* night.

Now: Applebees, on "Chicken-Wing Wednesday."

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 16, 11:45pm

i find it disappointing that I comment on nearly all posts on my new post page, mostly new people I don't know, and they rarely reciprocate. I think there needs to be some reinteration for the new people about the courtesy of commenting. Or you could have something like everything you commenton thirty stories, you get to post. Ridiculous to keep track of, but an (idiotic) idea.

Sam Rasnake
Nov 16, 11:52pm

The transformation has been a steady thing.

Normally, the weekends witness fewer posts & comments. 45 hours is the largest number I recall, and that would have been on a weekend.

In the past year or two, many of the primary voices here have, for a myriad of reasons, moved on. Some comment but no longer post.

Gloria, 17 on the main wall is the largest number of posts I can remember.

Sally Houtman
Nov 16, 11:56pm

I'm just here for the party.
*
*
*
*
*
Anyone wanna dance?

Dolemite
Nov 17, 12:02am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2apM0DAe1g

Sally Houtman
Nov 17, 12:11am

Hey, thanks for the dance! Now pass me some of them chicken wings and let's get this PARTY started!

James Claffey
Nov 17, 12:13am

wings! spicy...

Dolemite
Nov 17, 12:18am

Okay... one more, kids, but remember

it's a SCHOOL NIGHT!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN2VNFpiGWo&feature=related

Dolemite
Nov 17, 12:29am

Wait a minute...

It's Friday night!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYUW8JD89yA

Sally Houtman
Nov 17, 12:58am

Next up. Everyone on your feet now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vx2s2G88b0

The deejay is now taking requests. Don't be shy.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 17, 01:35am

This is the second time Lynne has raised this issue and I don't think we should get flip. Jurgen, Marcy etc need to do some mathematical strategizing on how when the size changes, so do the taking turns strategies. I'm willing to post less, but I'd like there to be a specific and new, objective protocol to follow that's clear to everyone so we don't get back into this rut of innuendoes, finger-pointing and resentment. I'll follow the rules, but they clearly need to change. I can't be the only one posting "too much" and I want my posts welcomed, not resented.

stephen hastings-king
Nov 17, 01:55am

want to dance?

http://soundcloud.com/gutterfunk/dj-die-and-mc-rigadig-1992

an old skool drum and bass set isn't a bad place to start.

i'm a professional enabler.

stephen hastings-king
Nov 17, 01:55am

want to dance?

http://soundcloud.com/gutterfunk/dj-die-and-mc-rigadig-1992

an old skool drum and bass set isn't a bad place to start.

i'm a professional enabler.

stephen hastings-king
Nov 17, 01:56am

why did that post twice?
criminy.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 17, 02:02am

I don't mind dancing as long as we stick to the issues while doing it.

stephen hastings-king
Nov 17, 02:19am

i've been out of circulation for some months so don't feel qualified to speak about how things are now.

Dolemite
Nov 17, 02:19am

A captivating, swaying, hypnotic mood-setter...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpA_5a0miWk

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 17, 02:29am

Perfectly weird. Love the pink dress. Now I'm in a hypnotic trance. What was I so worked up about?

Dolemite
Nov 17, 02:30am

egg

zack

ly

;-)

Sally Houtman
Nov 17, 02:33am

Our work here is done.

Though...I wouldn't mind another slow dance.

stephen hastings-king
Nov 17, 02:42am

http://podcast.dgen.net/rinsefm/podcast/HessleAudio151112.mp3

this is a live set by blawan & pariah from rinse fm two nights ago. it is not slow. but it is pretty great.

Lynn Beighley
Nov 17, 03:13am

I've just fallen out of love, is all. Thanks for the thoughtful discourse. Perhaps I'll start posting my work in the forum rather than on the main page.

But probably I'll fade away.

James Claffey
Nov 17, 03:33am

"...not fade away."

Dolemite
Nov 17, 03:50am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0i907YPls

Sally Houtman
Nov 17, 04:02am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bOKsOveYD0

stephen hastings-king
Nov 17, 04:20am

http://soundcloud.com/king-coya/huella-huellita-by-balvina

eamon byrne
Nov 17, 04:24am

I joined this site a couple of years ago because the standard of writing was pretty high. In fact I worried that I wouldn't be accepted. I submitted a couple of my "best" excerpts to the editor of the site as a plea-bargain for entry. (In those days it was invitation only.)

I'm certainly not saying that my own stuff is anything to write home about. What I am saying is that with the huge increase in membership the overall standard of writing across the site has more or less gone to the dogs. A lot of the posts are really, really bad. Really bad.

Obviously, there are many exceptions to this, but they're getting harder to find. I keep having to fall back on familiar names. These too are thinning out. I think the falling standards partly explains why a lot of very good writers have left the site.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 17, 11:38am

I consulted with a statistician. Even if I drop out completely, at the rate that Marcy is inviting people, everyone will have fewer and fewer hours/minutes on the first page. I'm just the obvious cause. That's the underlying cause. I'm taking a break and see what you guys can do to fix the problem without scapegoating me.

Linda Simoni-Wastila
Nov 17, 03:15pm

I've been scarce more for personal reasons unrelated to the site (work, family, school, editing, the pressure to write the few spare minutes in between). When I do venture to the site, I tend to check the forum out, read a few pieces on the front page, mostly folks I know and whose work I respect. The reason? What Eamon said. And the lack of reciprocity. For myself, I have stopped posting my own stories and poems, primarily because I am hoping to publish them in snooty journals ;^)

I do miss the energy, and hope my own life settles down a tad so I can read on a regular basis. Peace...

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 17, 06:40pm

This is a statistical problem. You can't keep adding people forever. I'd like to hear from Jurgen and Marcy: What are the numbers and what's the long term plan about the numbers?

RW Spryszak
Nov 17, 06:55pm

I've noticed, because people do it all the time, that you can post a story, let it move a few notches down, delete it, and then post another story. Or you can change your name every ten minutes and be nobody memorable at any given time.

Some of the problems here are program related, it seems.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 17, 10:54pm

Jurgen and Marcy: This is your call, no one else's. What do you think is a fair number of posts to wait before you post again. Give us a number. Your members are telling you 17 is too short. I'm following the rules. Change the rules and I'll change my behavior. 30 is fine with me. I just think it should be consistent, concrete and fair to avoid bickering and resentment among your members. I think this needs a response.

Joani Reese
Nov 17, 11:35pm

Fictionaut was created by the Deist's God. They made the machine and walked away. We are on our own. This argument has been made over and over ad nauseum for as long as I have been a member, and it will go on much longer than anyone (but the snide and bored) will wish it did. Post what you want when you want, just be polite about commenting on other people's work. This place is nice, but it's really not *all that* in the larger scheme of things. People who monopolize the board need to for whatever purpose, and no one is going to change that. If someone's fragile ego needs stroking, who does it hurt, really? What chaps my pants is that there are no contests in which we can earn points toward becoming *most popular,* *best dressed,* *most spirited,* or *prom king.* I have #always# wanted to be prom king.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 18, 12:01am

At least I am always very polite and encouraging in my comments. Your explanation is extremely interesting, as the constant inflow of new members is going to create new situations that will be interesting to "observe." For now, I'm not changing my behavior. I follow the rules and I'm nice to people. But as a psychologist I have to say that overcrowding of animals or people leads to aggression, and there are standard ways to prevent this. But that's not my job.

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 18, 12:09am

Quo vadis, Deus? Miserere mei Deus miserere mei quoniam in te confidit anima mea et in umbra alarum tuarum sperabo donec transeat iniquita.

Joani Reese
Nov 18, 12:16am

I passed Iniquity a long ways back. There was only one bar with a Shiner sign blinking brokenly through the dust-flecked window and a one pump gas station with a soaring red horse painted on the bathroom door. A violet-tinted old lady in ankle-rolled hose sat on a lawn chair beside a wicker basket full of turnip greens at the crossroads. Robert Johnson wasn't there at all.

Sally Houtman
Nov 18, 12:25am

God -

Grant me the serenity to begin relaxing about the little details of life.

Starting at 11:41:32 am on the 20th of November, 2012.

****
****
****
****

I cast one vote for Joani Reese for Prom King.

Any others?

****
****
****
****

I'm just happy to be here.

Joani Reese
Nov 18, 12:31am

Thankya, Sallycoorgorgcomnz, thankyaverymuch.

RW Spryszak
Nov 18, 12:35am

My dogma checker likes the font though.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 18, 12:46am

Make that two votes.

Joani Reese
Nov 18, 12:50am

Oh, God! And I didn't even have a speech prepared!

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 18, 01:30am

You'll need a cummerbund. Dear God. I love that word and never get the chance to use it.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 18, 01:54am

Oh, with this creative bunch we could come up with all sorts of regalia: sceptre, crown, hood, silk collar, signet ring, ermine mantle, coronation gloves, Sword of Justice, why, even a witch's broom. It could be anything. Two votes and the rest abstaining. You won by a landslide.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 18, 01:54am

Oh, with this creative bunch we could come up with all sorts of regalia: sceptre, crown, hood, silk collar, signet ring, ermine mantle, coronation gloves, Sword of Justice, why, even a witch's broom. It could be anything. Two votes and the rest abstaining. You won by a landslide.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 18, 01:55am

Twice.

Joani Reese
Nov 18, 01:56am

Please don't forget the boutonniere.

James Claffey
Nov 18, 01:58am

i think i'm done. the "larger scheme of things" beckons. the gumbo's on the boil and the goose is well and truly cooked.

eamon byrne
Nov 18, 06:24am

JLD - I gave that to Confucius and he said 往那裡去，O上帝嗎？有憐憫我，上帝啊，饒了我吧，我希望我的靈魂倚靠你，在你翅膀的影子，直到罪孽去世。

Dolemite
Nov 18, 08:00am

曾经有一个人从楠塔基特...

Jürgen Fauth
Nov 18, 10:03am

Hi guys--yes, we've been filling more requests lately because the waiting list to get on the site has grown ridiculously long. As always, it's a balancing act between adding fresh blood and making sure the front page doesn't move too fast.

Marcy Dermansky
Nov 18, 03:45pm

This is has been a super fascinating conversation. I always wish I could spend more time on Fictionaut. It's tricky because I am taking care of the three year old and working on my next novel -- which is too long to share on a site like this. Though actually, I loved when I published an excerpt on Bad Marie here. The comments were so gratifying.

I know how frustrating it must feel to post a short story and then have it disappear much too quickly. I know it's not the same, but sometimes I will post a tweet on twitter and it just disappears into the wind, no response, nothing...the Internet is so busy and crazy and I guess I get a little bit happy to know that so many writers are posting stories and poems here, even if it feels like too many to some, and sometimes, not quite good enough quality. I remember graduate school, wish that the stories in workshop could be better. What a snotty comment that sounds like, even to me.

I have been process new members who have requested invites and hopefully that is a little bit fun fun. New voices. I feel like Gloria Garfunkel is a fairly new member and I love her work. I am awed that she can write so gorgeously about the Holocaust in a short short. I find that incredible. I love discovering writers here.

One thing I have had success with on Fictionaut when I post a story and don't get a lot of readers is to tweet it or post it on Facebook. I like to do that, too, because these pieces then get readers who aren't Fictionaut members.

Also, since I am typing, I remember when I used to publish in lit magazines, the old school paper lit magazines and it was so hard to get accepted and I would be so proud of myself -- and then would get two contributor copies and a vague feeling that maybe no one read it. Which almost never happens on Fictionaut. I love comments, number of readers. Favorites. And I guess, to me, that feels like the point.

I wish the site could get a nice redesign to answer some of the problems, and I wish it were that easy. I don't know any design code. And I feel a small measure of gratitude to anyone who reads this far that you are on this forum, talking about it.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 18, 04:10pm

Thank you so much Jurgen and Marcy for your thoughtful and contextual responses. It means so much. You have no idea how meaningful to me your words about my Holocaust writing are Marcy. Thank you so much for that. I had no idea there was a "waiting list." That in itself makes me want to be more conservative about how often and how short or long I post. The long ones can take ten times the short ones to read. It really helps when you give us feedback. I hope you'll consider doing it more often.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 18, 05:19pm

BTW: You have room for three more stories, making 20 total on the first page instead of 17.

Julie Innis
Nov 18, 11:18pm

egads.

Mathew Paust
Nov 18, 11:30pm

Thanks again to Gloria for unknowingly luring me to the forums. It was worth the existential leap of daring just to find this particular thread. Thanks again to Marcy for accepting my request for an invitation to this marvelous site. Some of you who read that last sentence are undoubtedly rolling your eyes, but I am a grateful refugee from the foundering steamer Open Salon, which resembled steerage on the Titanic even in its heyday.

Ann Bogle
Nov 19, 01:33am

"Two monkeys were paid unequally; see what happens next":

http://www.upworthy.com/2-monkeys-were-paid-unequally-see-what-happens-next?g=2

Soon to be deleted
Nov 19, 03:16pm

Who really cares? Why is this STILL being discussed? BORING.

David Ackley
Nov 19, 03:25pm

Here, in a couple of e-mails from the offended party and in another thread on the forum a couple of remarks I made in this thread have been expanded into a whole bucket of high school silliness and recrimination. Anyone interested is invited to read my posts above, Gloria's public replies, and decide whether what I said was fair or unfair. As to the rest, well, we're all entitled to our opinions about my alleged, lets see now, "pettiness," "lack of social skills (actually most of my friends would agree with this), "meanness," "hostility,"" negativity" etc., and whether this tiny tempest in a teapot warrants all this weeping and wailing.

Dolemite
Nov 19, 04:00pm

Don't worry about it, David.

Just shudder and move on.

;-)

Frankie Saxx
Nov 19, 04:10pm

Having started a tentative foray into Wattpad a couple days ago, I am profoundly grateful someplace like Fictionaut exists.

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 19, 04:29pm

A little drama in the morning makes the coffee taste sweeter.

Dolemite
Nov 19, 04:31pm

It *is* something to look forward to.

Like those tv shows with the characters you love to hate.

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 19, 04:33pm

Oh, look! Jeffrey's back and is he ever bored.

Dolemite
Nov 19, 04:54pm

(passes note to JLD. JLD opens, reads, chuckles, writes back:

"I don't think he will. He's just going for effect right now. If he REALLY was, he wouldn't be writing about it, he'd have done it!"

RW Spryszak
Nov 19, 08:48pm

I didn't even know there was an argument...?

Franklin Goodish
Nov 19, 09:03pm

i love stuff like this. huzzzzzzah!

Marcus Speh
Nov 19, 09:16pm

I have now read every single one of your utterances and I do feel considerably enriched by having done so. I'm sure Lynn feels just like that.

I have participated in and watched many communities over the past 20 years. As a platform that also supports meaningful communication and sharing of true creative products I have never seen a platform more stable than Fictionaut. As its members have discussed many times, the platform is technically far from perfect and could be developed in multiple ways. But seeing how many old and new members manage despite various technical shortcomings, I'm inclined to think that technology (including changed parameter settings) is not the key to Fictionaut's success or growth.

Instead, the attraction of this place results almost entirely from the beauty of its users. Quality enters in but is not always breathtaking either in the positive on the negative sense. Control is minimal. Social media support (Facebook, Twitter) is nice but not essential. The magic which is here and which can be felt (sometimes more sometimes less) is as unique as the magic of a particular library, or a particular coffee shop, or a particular time in your life. Enjoy it while it lasts, to try to make it permanent because its impermanence is imperative. Its essence is elfin. It sits like morning fog in an uncanny valley.

Beyond the lyrical values that I have come to identify with Fictionaut, with this non-place, my personal journey has lately led me astray. I have stopped writing flash except for my blog and I only cross post at times when I feel like doing it. My flash publication pipeline has run dry. Like Linda I come here to check the forums, read the occasional story and comment when I can. But I've found that in the throes of composing a novel I am almost unable to appreciate any other writing than writing that I seek out by way of research or to recharge. Still, the last almost 4 years it's been essential and most important to me to know that this Valley exists and that I can come back anytime.

stephen hastings-king
Nov 19, 09:49pm

I like what Marcus wrote and want to echo it.

Like I said before, I'm still working my way out from under a book project that had the effect of scattering the routines on which making curious little fictions depends for me anyway...I think of it like playing an instrument, so a matter of process and consistency first. Perhaps you know how it goes when you stop playing an instrument for a while and then go back to it, that sense of being outside it even as you can still do the technical things you could before you stopped. It takes a while to work your way back into the wood, into the grain of the sound. And that requires patience to work through.

What I wanted to say is that this site has been important to me in any number of ways, and I'm pleased much in the way Marcus pointed to above (though perhaps less lyrically) that the collective is still active and morphing. That is as it should be. It's lovely to be able to move away for a while and come back to see what's happening, even as immersion here would, for me anyway, follow from pushing through the process of finding my way back into the grain of things.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 19, 10:35pm

This site is TOO important to me and I need to get myself involved in a book project to pull me away from it too.

stephen hastings-king
Nov 19, 11:35pm

All I'll say, Gloria, is: get involved with a project that you like writing.

Mine was an academic thing based on my dissertation. The subject matter still engages me, but the sentences felt like an endless field of overcooked pasta--I would scythe and scythe and it made no difference.

I figured out something I already knew: that academic writing is not a particularly interesting way to do conceptually complex work. But the opportunity was too good to pass up. And, despite what I've written, I'm glad I did it.

But the result in process was struggling to find a way of thinking that I moved past some time ago in order to make newer elements mesh with older ones. That was not awesome. But it's done. It'll come out next year sometime. A paperback will follow, they say. Apparently there'll be distribution so that folk can not buy it in a variety of locations.

So yeah...do a project that engages where you are now.

That's my bit of advice.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 20, 12:07am

I posted on Reciprocity by the Wayside what I think is going on with me and yes, why finding another writing project would be good for me. Ironically, for now, it's the Holocaust because much more stressful and painful for me would be writing about my current brain injury. I know people have done it. I don't know if I can bear writing now about the losses I've faced as a result. The Holocaust and my childhood are far enough away. Thanks.

stephen hastings-king
Nov 20, 12:27am

Maybe keep a journal, if you aren't doing it. You can go back to it later, when all's well again.

John Riley
Nov 20, 01:11am

I write and edit (rewrite) nonfiction for a living. Sometimes it's a drag but usually I'm working on projects I find interesting or can find a way to make interesting. What I've learned is that I love to write. I mean at the basic level--to think in language and type the words. The beautiful thing about nonfiction is you usually know what you'll write next so you can organize your notes and thinking and then spend stretches of time making words and sentences and paragraphs that weren't there before. Of course my fiction and poetry is more important and if I didn't need to eat and pay tuitions and mortgages I'd do more of it. But it was a great moment when I discovered that I like to write just for the fun of it.

Linda Simoni-Wastila
Nov 20, 04:43am

There's nothing like trying to write a novel to keep you: 1) sleepless; 2) preocuppied (aka obsessed); and 3) outta trouble.

Peace...

James Claffey
Nov 20, 05:20am

i must be doing it the wrong way then, linda! at least on 3.

Frankie Saxx
Nov 20, 11:48am

I think I must've missed like forty seven thousand stories flashing past on the main page in the time it took me to catch up on this discussion. (3 days.)

Joani Reese
Nov 20, 02:06pm

...and out of ALL these people, I only get TWO votes for prom king (and a secret e-mail of support). SNIFF. At least no one else is in the running. I suppose that makes me king by default. It's good to be king.

John Riley
Nov 20, 05:08pm

Wear the crown lightly.

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 20, 06:02pm

If you're the king, Joani, who's the queen? (Note: I'm not applying for the post. I haven't a thing to wear. I suppose I'd have to shave and I haven't done that since... oh, 1974 and I would likely look silly in chiffon.)

Sally Houtman
Nov 20, 06:28pm

I cast one vote for JLD for Prom Queen.

Methinks he doth protest too much.

Frankie Saxx
Nov 20, 10:33pm

I think I saw that delete to circumvent the limit & repost to get back on the front page thing (mentioned above) today. That's a douche move.

Joani Reese
Nov 20, 11:12pm

James! No worries. I have my wedding dress available for you--decades-old red wine stains and all. You'd be SO PRETTY in it, beard and all. Please be my queen.

Lynn Beighley
Nov 21, 12:28am

I think you've all lost sight of the original point. I DON'T HAVE A DATE.

Joani Reese
Nov 21, 12:36am

My cousin Mortimer is nice, Lynn, and he's lonely, too.

Lynn Beighley
Nov 21, 12:43am

Does he live alone, JP?

Joani Reese
Nov 21, 01:17am

Yes, but he does have a goat and three marmosets.

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 21, 01:34am

If anyone ever told me that someday, someone would say to me, "Please be my queen" I would have bet not.

I don't know what to say. Perhaps if I say nothing, this will all go away.

Nothing.

Joani Reese
Nov 21, 02:07am

So, does this mean I don't need to purchase a corsage, JLD? This would be a load off my mind, as I simply couldn't decide between a subtle baby's breath and ivy or an in-your-face white rose and red carnation combo.

stephen hastings-king
Nov 21, 02:13am

I just wanted to linger for a moment on the image of JLD in a chiffon number.

.

David Ackley
Nov 21, 02:39am

At last, the answer.

Frankie Saxx
Nov 21, 07:13pm

No man with a goat truly lives alone.

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 21, 10:49pm

FrankieFrankieFrankie...

Actually, I'm rather fond of fajitas con carne de cabrito, slowly simmered in olive oil and salted with blackened chilis. Best served with wheat tacos, lightly fried in the grease left behind in the pan.

Frankie Saxx
Nov 21, 10:54pm

You can't have your goat and eat it too, James.

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 21, 10:56pm

hahahjajajajajajaja

Chris Galvin
Nov 21, 11:26pm

Glad to see there's some fun in this discussion. Maybe we should make the "see more" button at the bottom of the seventeen newest stories more visible. But, would anyone click it? If there were thirty stories on the list instead, would the last few get clicked?

How about a random story generator button? There is a lot of great older stuff on this site that doesn't get seen after the initial excitement.

I agree with Gloria that people need to reciprocate more by reading and commenting on posts by those who've been kind enough to leave comments.

Of course F'naut has changed, but it isn't supposed to be an exclusive club...is it? One issue that folks here have raised before is that there seems to be a core group of the same people actively posting stories and participating in the forums. The newer members could use some encouragement. So could the ones whose stories have few or no comments or faves.

Really though, sometimes I'm too busy to post or comment, but I'll drop by to read a quick story, and I'm thankful that I can do this. I'm also thankful for the existence of the F'naut community and for the forums.

MichaelDickes
Nov 22, 12:51am

Wow. Not again. Look! A bunny!

Dolemite
Nov 22, 01:39am

http://www.amazon.com/Nilsson-Harry-Definitive-Collectors-Edition/dp/B0091JJ278/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353548220&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Point

MichaelDickes
Nov 22, 02:16am

http://youtu.be/PYNjL9_rCJc

Dolemite
Nov 22, 07:16am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUDjRZ30SNo

MichaelDickes
Nov 22, 11:58am

With a nod to the last four words of James Loyd Davis initial post in this thread, I offer this:

http://youtu.be/XGK84Poeynk

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 22, 01:40pm

As Fictionaut's unacknowledged prom queen, not that I've accepted the honor, mind you, but going forward... I would like to suggest a less cumbaya theme for our membership, one that better expresses our communal angst, indeed the very zeigtgeist of any writer's collective:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdCrZfTkG1c

Lynn Beighley
Nov 22, 09:30pm

You're the point. I'm the line. Don't even talk to me about triangles. Assholes.

Dolemite
Nov 22, 09:36pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgWn7zbgxZ4

Chris Okum
Dec 04, 12:24am

I had no idea that posting a story a day to the front page was considered bad etiquette. I am as guilty of that as anyone. I will stop posting so much and spread them out a little more. Maybe one story a week or something. I don't like ballhogs, and I certainly don't want to be thought of as one.

Adam Sifre
Dec 04, 02:45pm

Hmm. I did not know this. I have already taken over most of the internet and i don't need another forum added to my virtual empire. I will reduce my submissions.

Matthew A. Hamilton
Dec 04, 06:25pm

Now I only read and post what is accepted for publication.

Its also free advertising for lit mags.

Susan Gibb
Dec 04, 07:45pm

Wow. Has this debate surfaced again? Yes, I too have fallen off the Fictionaut wagon when my occasional post would roll off the front page in an hour.

I am still hooked up with fictionaut new stories via a newsfeed and thus see the names of who's posted daily and have the option of checking in or if it's the same old, same old, pass on. Daily stories, or those posted the instant yours rolls off the front page is posting too much. If there's a lull, hop in. Before you post, see who you're about to knock off the page. Can he/she use a little more love and attention? Then hold off a bit.

Writers are a wonderful group of talented, creative, and awesomely helpful folk. But we all have the same need: to be read.

Susan Gibb
Dec 04, 07:47pm

Oh, and if they haven't already danced and drunk their way through a prom, I vote for Joani for king and James for queen. And I do believe a corsage is required.

Gloria Garfunkel
Dec 04, 08:47pm

As one of the guilty frequent posters (for now at least --- I plan to take a break to your relief) what's wrong with just reading the second and third pages when the scroll is moving fast? It gives more variety. It gives more choices. I do it every day. But I'm a guilty party, so what do I know?

Gloria Garfunkel
Dec 04, 08:58pm

And Chris Okum, I too was shocked at the venom spat at posting every day. I was just focused on, ok, when do I get a turn again? It never occurred to me that I was being a ballhog or there wasn't just enough room for everyone to post as much as they wanted as long as they followed the rules. I still don't get why it's such an issue. I must have a ballhog-deficit-disorder.

Gloria Garfunkel
Dec 04, 08:58pm

And Chris Okum, I too was shocked at the venom spat at posting every day. I was just focused on, ok, when do I get a turn again? It never occurred to me that I was being a ballhog or there wasn't just enough room for everyone to post as much as they wanted as long as they followed the rules. I still don't get why it's such an issue. I must have a ballhog-deficit-disorder.

Gloria Garfunkel
Dec 04, 09:09pm

And frankly, whether it's to my advantage or not, I get really bored when there isn't a lot of new material coming in fast. It has to do partly with our different lifestyles. I'm quite sick and spend a lot of time on the Internet. Others with more active lives don't have the time. I feel lucky to have this time for now because eventually I may not have time to post at all. Hurrah!

Gloria Garfunkel
Dec 04, 11:03pm

TO PROLIFICS:
"Don't let whiners silence you with Emily Post."
Same-Old-Same-Old

Dolemite
Dec 04, 11:14pm

Exactly.

All this bs about not posting, not creating, not manifesting, not experimenting...but being polite...

and the whole thing drags down

to a staaaaaaaaaag

nant stream.

And for those who swoop down every couple of months and say:

"Ooh! The world is spinning too fast! I are dizzy!"

well, speed up your own internal process.

Dolemite
Dec 04, 11:30pm

...instead of working so hard to drag down what was once a rather vibrant website.

Lynn Beighley
Dec 04, 11:37pm

You know, I sound like such an ass.

Adam Sifre
Dec 05, 12:09am

I am swayed by both sides. I will no longer post every day but I will try to publish something daily.

Sally Houtman
Dec 05, 12:41am

Trying to regulate creativity (even your own) is the equivalent of scheduling a time to be spontaneous.

In English, that means 'It don't make no sense.'

People use this site in different ways.

I say LET THEM.

When folks who contribute much spirit and energy to this community begin to hold back, we all lose out.

*A special note to Chris Okum: Come home, baby. All is forgiven.

Can we all get back to work now?

Susan Gibb
Dec 05, 02:25am

Oh hell, do whatever you want.

Félix Saparelli
Dec 05, 08:00am

I first joined and wrote here in October 2010. That's – wow – two years ago. I left it alone and almost forgot about it for several reasons, some of which were personal, but also because I didn't feel the content matched my own at that time. I remember quite a lot more activity, but maybe that was just illusion.

I'm now starting to write short and long again. It's liberating. I'm not publishing here for people to see my prose, though! If I wanted attention and an audience, I have several other venues which would get me far more exposure far more quickly. But this community, I feel, is worth it.

Finally, like Sally and Susan have said: words do not come to me in timely fashion, on the hour of a day, sagely trotting behind their mother. They often come in the middle of the night, as I sit in bed staring at code and bugs, or in my nazel.

Writing on a schedule can be interesting, from a certain point-of-view, but fiction I write under such circumstance will certainly not be posted here. I value y'all too much for that.

Well, whatever— I probably will not write so much as to cause any real problem. But I do fear that what I am seeing here, coming back after a long absence, is exactly what I loath in such a community: a reluctance to change.

Adam Sifre
Dec 05, 12:56pm

One thread does not a community make.

James Lloyd Davis
Dec 05, 05:26pm

I did not write here what I was thinking just now, but I would like to apologize for thinking thus. It was tasteless, tacky, uncharitable... I was way out of line.

Adam Sifre
Dec 06, 01:21pm

Isn't the one post a day rule the site's way of saying it's okay to post once a day?

Gloria Garfunkel
Dec 06, 02:29pm

I love James' comment. It's like, don't think about a white elephant. Don't think about all the awful things he could have said. I've been wondering ever since. Brilliant. And Adam, yes, but some people think that's too much posting.They want to change the rule.

Adam Sifre
Dec 06, 03:59pm

I'm all for changing rules, no matter what they are.

Gloria Garfunkel
Dec 06, 05:25pm

Uh, they want to change the rule to getting to post less, not more. Are you still for it?

Adam Sifre
Dec 06, 05:48pm

Yes. I think if people post less, it will give us the opportunity to focus more on what is posted.

Plus, my track record in obeying rules is pretty sketchy, so I'm not sure this will affect me.

Gloria Garfunkel
Dec 06, 06:53pm

Totally paradoxical non-answer. A koan.

Gloria Garfunkel
Dec 06, 07:03pm

My own creativity is extremely cyclical and I'm sure many will be happy to hear that I am feeling increasingly uninspired and will take a partial or total break from posting at all for awhile. This should open up at least an extra slot a day. I post a lot when I am hypomanic to get it all out before I run dry.. And then not at all when depressed. So when I'm sad, you can be happy that I've shut my mouth and vice versa. Lynn and Susan I understand your perspectives and it is nothing personal to either of you. What has added to your frustration is that you have been functioning normal lives while I have been in bed for a few months with a brain injury that is healing but takes a year. I'm on the Internet while you are living your lives. The ups and downs in prolificness, In my case, at least, is called Bipolar Disorder. Bed-ridden or not, I won't be posting depressed. Peace.

Adam Sifre
Dec 06, 10:01pm

What's with all the self depreciatipon. I always heard writers were a happy group, by and large.

Gloria Garfunkel
Dec 06, 11:35pm

Writers are as diverse in personalities as anyone else.

Adam Sifre
Dec 07, 02:49am

You read one writer, you've read them all.

Gloria Garfunkel
Dec 07, 04:18am

That's very true, but they still all have very different personalities.

XXXX
Dec 08, 01:32pm

Reading and writing are solitary affairs.

The idea of a site where these are done in groups with a variety of people is at best a misled burst of optimism and a misunderstanding of what it means to be a writer and reader.

Still, it is nice to hear what others think of your work, and occasionally there is the good poem or piece of flash fiction.

Regardless, it is a wasteland with much trash.

Mathew Paust
Dec 08, 01:55pm

P., your modest insouciance is infectious.

James Lloyd Davis
Dec 08, 03:12pm

Yes, it's sad. We are all morons, but we go on. Yes, we go on.

Michael Gillan Maxwell
Dec 10, 04:50pm

Wow ~ this is quite a thread! Huge spectrum of diverse comments, many of them passionate, and while I don't agree with all of it, much of what everyone says resonates with me. When I was invited to Fictionaut, ( a little over a year ago) I was informed that there was a tacit agreement, and established norm to limit posting of new work to once a week. Don't know if that really ever was the case, but it worked for me and felt right. There was always too much for me to keep up with anyway, but I found that there were writers that I regularly followed and with whom I had some authentic interaction. For a variety of reasons, I've been off the radar for the past several months, but part of smaller writing circles and sending stuff "out there". Like any other batter who swings for the fences, I strike out more than I connect, and that's just the way it is. However, as a result I do have some pieces in my sock drawer that I feel good about and will be posting on Fictionaut. I am looking forward to re establishing some "old" connections and cultivating some new ones in the ever changing, ever evolving Fictionaut community. I'm also honored and humbled to be part of this special community dedicated to the art and craft of writing. I will most certainly come trick or treating to some of your Fictionaut doorsteps very soon ~ although, in some cases, I may just ring the doorbell and run away! ;-) Tidings of the season!

Mathew Paust
Dec 10, 07:07pm

I finally read the whole thread from top to right here. Feel like I've spent a couple of hours in a virtual Cheers, except I'm sober. The drift I catch leads me to conclude I should post less frequently. Perhaps every other day. I'm good with that. So mote it be.

Adam Sifre
Dec 12, 01:45pm

Like most of my decisions, I'll be relying on the wisdom of my Magic 8-ball.

Dolemite
Feb 03, 12:57am

I miss this thread...

*sniff*

;-)

See ya
Feb 03, 02:14am

I don't have the chance to visit, submit, or offer my thoughts as often as once did, but I can tell you that Fictionaut has played a role in my life that is impossible to explain. Because of Fictionaut, I have the honor of knowing people such as Darryl Price, Sam Rasnake, Meg Pokrass, Meg Tuite, James Robinson, Marcus Speh...hell, the folks I've met here could go on and on. I'll stop, except to say I also met Stephen Marlowe here. He read my work here, then read my work elsewhere, then offered me a chance to publish my first collection with Foxhead Books. Still, that aside, have we forgetten, with respect, that there are very few places writers have to gather and talk about the craft we love? Nothing has changed with Fictionaut. It remains the same community Jurgen envisioned when he launched it. If there has been negative change, do what you can to get over it and try to simply enjoy the place. Who gives a fuck if anyone reads the story you posted? Who gives a fuck if you don't feel like posting a story for eighteen months or eighteen minutes? Who gives a fuck about anything other than the fact that this site is a place for writers and readers where we can talk, share thoughts, bitch, admire, bicker, compliment, go dark, burn bright as the heart of a campfire. Whatever the hell you feel like doing that day. Let's just be ourselves and try our best not to look a gift horse in the mouth. Best to everyone. Smile. Write. Read. And thank God for Fictionaut.

Sally Jayne Heymann
Feb 03, 03:39am

After virtual silence from the nib of my pen and the fingers on the keyboard, this site has offered me a soft place to land and share what comes to my mind. My voice gets stronger every day with the support and encouragement from those who frequent this place. I am truly grateful for this.

*raises my tea in salute*

Gloria Garfunkel
Feb 03, 09:44am

See ya, that was great, so why are you leaving? Sally, I agree.

Christopher Allen
Feb 03, 08:20pm

Hi, everyone and Lynn, who started this thread to ask what the point of Fictionaut is. I left Fictionaut a few months ago briefly due to personal reasons (nothing to do with the site). It was a strange time. I deleted my Facebook page as well. I wanted to disappear. That's neither here nor there.

I'm back and I've read the thread. Fictionaut needs change. I agree with Lynn's original point that there are aspects of Fictionaut that don't work. One solution could be separating genres so that there could be several front pages depending on the genre. The Top Posts could be a statistic based on all the front pages. This would give all the writers more exposure.
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