Forum / Meg's Note to the Community

• 
  Jürgen Fauth

  May 24, 08:06am

  Hi all --

  below is the text of Meg's "Note to the Community", which she posted to the front page last night. This is a worthwhile discussion, but it's not fiction, so I'm moving it to the forums. Thanks!

  - Jürgen

  A Note to the Fictionaut Community

  by Meg Pokrass

  1. I have been here with Fictionaut for a long time, since the beginning. In the last two years I've been running the Fictionaut Five author interview series, and recently coordinating our new "Editor's Eye" feature. I have always felt lucky to be here, and I love the work I do. I love this place. There is no other place like it. Jurgen Fauth and Carson Baker gave us a gift here, for which I am eternally grateful. I want nothing but to give back to this community which started from an original, creative idea. Fictionaut is and was an innovative offering to writers everywhere.

  2. A recent (in the last year) problem is occurring. We, as a community, are not reading and favoriting a variety of work here anymore. It is mostly the same group of people who end up at the top of the "recommended" wall every week with occasional (very occasional)... exceptions.

  In our last "Editor's Eye" feature by Steve Himmer of "Necessary Fiction," Himmer found 3 story gems which had been missed entirely here on Fictionaut... One of the stories was discovered with zero favorites.

  That week shows us 3 missed gems, while the same group of writers were on the wall of favorites, again like the week before. This is like visiting a fantastic, exotic, eclectic city and eating at the same diner every meal.

  3. This dynamic here feels bad to many of us, loyal community folks who adore the site. And just as sadly, many fine writers won't participate here because of this dynamic now.

  4. Nothing is permanent. I am suggesting we change how we look at things here. I am suggesting we don't always favorite and gush over the same 6 - 9 people who shoot to the top of the recommended list every week.

  5. What can we do? We can read OTHER people's stories, and branch out! We can pretend we are in a bookstore and discover new people's work, maybe give them a favorite if we like their story! We can stop favoriting the same people over and over, automatically.

  Look at the stories Necessary Fiction's Steve Himmer discovered in yesterday's "Editor's Eye" feature....
  http://www.fictionaut.com/blog/2012/05/22/editors-eye-steve-himmer/
  They were hardly noticed. WHY?

  Gaining popularity by gushing and favoriting ONLY the people on the wall here at Fictionaut every week honestly does not make one a better writer, reader, or community member.

  Thank you for listening.

• 
  Jürgen Fauth

  May 24, 08:07am

  And here are the comments the post had gathered in the sidebar so far. I hope we can continue the discussion here. Thanks -- Jürgen

  Comments
  
  Lynn Beighley, 4 hours ago
  I will fav this. This has been my feeling for quite some time. I love our skilled friends, but I try (when I'm not off in my own world under a crushing deadline) to read work that has no favs, no comments. Because it's important. Thank you for saying this.
  
  Meg Pokrass, 4 hours ago
  thank you Lynn.
  
  W.F. Lantry, 4 hours ago
  Meg, I get a little frustrated as well, for similar but different reasons. I think we just all need to write more, and writing includes reading, participating, commenting, even talking on the forum. Of course, I'm as guilty as anyone. So, and speaking only for myself, I'll say what Boxer said: "I will work harder!"
  *
  Best,
  Bill
  
  Michael Gillan Maxwell, 4 hours ago
  Thank you and right on. I'm a relative newcomer, but I wonder if the whole concept of "faves" is an idea worth revisiting? I love Fictionaut and all of the doors it has opened relative to expanding my online writing community and my perspective on creative writing altogether, and for that I am very grateful. Anyway, I'm with you on this and I appreciate your posting!
  
  Shawn Misener, 4 hours ago
  amen
  
  James Claffey, 4 hours ago
  i loved the three stories that got picked, and unearthed another writer i'd not read before, summer robinson, the other day. part of the problem for me is one of having enough time to did through the list of posted stories and find writers like summer. i know there are many others there too writing in relative obscurity from the 300+ view stories. we can't help having our favorites, and i deeply appreciate the FN community who've fueled so many of my stories. maybe reading one "known" writer, and then one "unfamiliar" writer each time on the site might work. i'll try that this week. and good for you meg, for pointing out the inequity of things. you are brave and honest, and i know this site means a lot to you. The Green Paint on the Walls Clouds my Thoughts of Flying Planks of Wood, Much An ocean-going tin of crosseyed mussels could never match the melodious burblings of your sister's husband. so there!
  
  Kathryn Kulpa, 4 hours ago
  You're right, Meg. Unfortunately, we live in a culture of competition, but as Lynn said, it's important to remember to seek out the good work that may not find its way to the top of the list. 'Most popular' doesn't automatically mean best.
  
  MaryAnne Kolton, 3 hours ago
  Meg, I have always been one to support the "new" writers whenever possible. I do so want them to just keep writing. Each summer brings a rash of new faces and work. Not everyone has time to read all the stories posted here. Plus the fact, that for quite some time now, shorter work seems to equal better in some way.
  I do feel a prickle of resentment about you or anyone telling me who I can fave or not. Perhaps we should just discontinue faves altogether as you and others seem to feel they have become an issue.
  In addition, I believe strongly that this conversation belongs on the forum - not here!!!
  
  Meg Pokrass, 3 hours ago
  MaryAnne - I feel a prickle also about being told where this "belongs"
  
  Meg Pokrass, 3 hours ago
  MaryAnne, of course nobody has the time to read all the stories here, nobody said they do! That makes it even more vital to explore here, to look around, clearly. and if you are doing that already, huzah! that is great, you are a role model here. Why a prickle? this to me is truly interesting, since you seem to agree with this conceptually, that we branch out. And you can also see, as anyone can, that isn't happening so much.
  
  Meg Pokrass, 3 hours ago
  thank you Michael. Thank you Kathyrn. thank you James, Bill, and Shawn!
  
  Sian Barbara Allen, 3 hours ago
  Go, sister
  
  Meg Pokrass, 3 hours ago
  i feel that private messaging people is wonderful especially if one has something specific to say to that writer, or to explain.
  By the way, what i have noticed in the forum is that it is always jumped on by the loudest person. Which would ... here... be you.
  
  James Robison, 3 hours ago
  When John Irving, fter four ignored or reviled novels, was being celebrated by everyone for Garp, and wealthy at last, and embraced by critics, he gave a speech at Breadloaf,I think,(anyway, I was in the audience)in which he said,"At last no one can accuse me of being bitter or sour grapes. The critical apparatus in the USA is horrible and most critics monsters..." So, Meg, I'm very glad you raised this serious problem, (and here, where everyone will read it, with no ofense meant to MAK) because you're a favorite here, and well-treated so your concern comes from a honest and objective place. I agree with your every point.
  
  Meg Pokrass, 3 hours ago
  thank you very much Jim.
  
  David James, 3 hours ago
  I don't write worth a crap, but I read almost all the stories because I have time to do so. Often, I wonder, "why is this good story not recognized?" I think Ms. Pokrass speaks for writers who seem to me to be sometimes overlooked and I admire her courage to speak out about what to me is a valid observation. To me, there is a sorta clubby feel to the atmosphere here.
  
  MaryAnne Kolton, 2 hours ago
  Quoting directly from Fictionaut FAQ:
  "I have all sorts of ideas how you could improve this site.
  Great! We'd love to hear about it. Please drop Jürgen Fauth or Carson Baker a line, or post in the Help forum."
  
  Gessy Alvarez, 2 hours ago
  Meg, yes, it's all true. I would like to add another note this one for new contributors to Fictionaut. Read and comment on more stories than you post. Get your voice out there. Announce your arrival...Like in real-life, you have to build a presence. Let the current inhabitants know that not only can you write original, thought-provoking stories and/or poems, you can also engage in meaningful dialogue (forum) and give insightful commentary.
  If you don't engage than you do risk being buried. I was really shy when I first started posting on Fictionaut, believe it or not. :) If you're shy, get over it quick.
  Many amazing stories get very little attention here, it's true, but just like there's a list of familiar writers on the Recommended List, there's a familiar list of commentators on the Recent Activity list.
  So newbies read and comment as much as you can. One or two stories/poems a day is a good place to start.
  I've loved the time I've spent here and would love for this place to stay alive and electric. Keep it flowing folks. Keep communicating, keep supporting, keep writing.
  Okay, I'm out.
  Thanks, Meg for getting this discussion started.
  
  Ann Bogle, 2 hours ago
  I love David James!
  Thanks for posting this as you did, Meg.
  I went on a fave frenzy the other day and hoped no one might notice it. I faved almost all I read without, for a change, reading from the suggested/recommended list. I hoped it didn't seem arbitrary, as if I had no system or was in too beautiful a mood. I really meant those faves, though, and would fave them again.
  The word "professional" is driving me buggy. If you aren't solvent at writing, you're a guildsman or artisan or practitioner but not a professional.
  "Ever written a novel in a suit?" That was overheard, years ago, on ether, living at my mother's house. I imagined Philip Roth saying it. Maybe he did.
  Today I'm wearing embroidered (red/white/orange with pale gray pin stripe) cropped pants worn by Sheryl Crow some day in L.A. The pants cost $450 in NY, but I got them for $20 in MN. They were at least a size too large, so I paid the tailor $30 to alter them. That's what American Book Review offered to pay me for a review I'd recently written: $50. The paperwork for accepting payment was onerous. There were three or four forms. In my situation, I could not easily accept payment in dollars, so I accepted a one-year subscription to ABR and 6 contributor copies.
  Perhaps reading randomly (going by attraction to the title and pull quotes) is how.
  
  Meg Pokrass, 104 minutes ago
  Gessy yes!
  
  Meg Pokrass, 103 minutes ago
  Ann thank you. I love David James too. he just says it.
  
  Meg Pokrass, 100 minutes ago
  i like my sidebar. i like it very much. this is a good good place to be able to say things, so many things said here by good people. Good for us. Keep reading, exploring, and writing.
  
  Matt Dennison, 95 minutes ago
  I agree with the pretty smart people.
  .....................
  Wait a minute, make that:
  ......................
  I agree with the pretty, smart, people.
  (Man, that commas ARE important!)
  
  Sally Houtman, 88 minutes ago
  Meg, as much as you contribute to this community, you can post whatever, wherever, and whenever you like and it's okay by me. In my never-to-be-humble opinion, you have earned that right.
  That said, this is a community and a community is no more than a gathering of people, in this case, who share a similar interest/passion. Where there are people, there will be dynamics, agendas, cliques, conflicts and companionships. This is unavoidable and, I believe, as part and parcel of the human condition.
  I use this place, this museum/playground/insane asylum in a way that benefits me. What doesn't benefit me, I ignore. It benefits me to share work, receive feedback, check the pulse of a new piece, have fun, make friends, occasionally stir up shit, etc. I read and comment because, unlike the 'real' world, I get to give an 'atta boy' (or girl) for something that inspired, intrigued, excited, or even enraged me. I get to have a say. That benefits me. I'd love to get a fave for showing up at work or making a brilliant meal, or give a fave to someone for the same, but in the 'real world' that just ain't gonna happen. It can happen here, but works only if we put it in its proper context, take it all in the spirit in which it was intended. The praise is nice to have and want, but if we start needing it, we're through.
  I say take what you like and leave the rest.
  That works for me.
  
  Matt Dennison, 77 minutes ago
  Sally's statement, for example, is both pretty AND smart.
  This place is a microcosm of the world. Can't be no other way (dang it).
  As with anything, IF you can ignore the hot-bed of inbred mediocrity that dominates at a certain level, you can benefit GREATLY from coming here.
  
  Meg Pokrass, 72 minutes ago
  yes, i totally agree. Sally is the sun in my days here, as are you Matt, and the talented ones who do not care a rat's ass about popularity. just do what they love.
  
  Meg Pokrass, 71 minutes ago
  and that was so pretty. it was, and she is.
  
  MaryAnne Kolton, 69 minutes ago
  Just curious as to why some of my previous comments are missing...
  
  Matt Dennison, 59 minutes ago
  And it's a damn shame, imo, that the best work almost NEVER hits the front page, but that, in and of itself, cannot be considered of any importance in the larger scheme of things ((using site to improve your writing--not based on what anyone says, not based on how many love-notes get slid into your locker, so to speak, but just from being able to see the work at a fresh remove).
  It's not "publishing," no matter how much some people would like it to be considered as such.
  No one is "paid" in anything more important or real than high-school-emotional-giddy dollars...
  In fact, the dominance of dreck is to be expected. I mean, look at what is popular in the world at large. Same thing's going to happen here.
  It reflects poorly on the site (and writing in general), though, as those works get the most reads (which I also don't understand. Why be driven by the opinion of the masses when it comes to what you are going to read?)
  
  Ann Bogle, 58 minutes ago
  My highest scoring story, ever, got 26, but it was Mary Anne I think who called me a psycho for critiquing one of her husband's offerings and defaved it, landing it at exactly 25, still qualifying it for that group (25 faves). Someone defaved it. I do know that. I put up an entire book not long ago and got 4 faves. I like the book better now than I did before I shined it at you.
  I'm on my 9th shot of tequila so I didn't write as carefully as I ought to have written about Sheryl Crow's pants, which are *like* mine, like: same brand, same style, but not, in fact, her very pair, not her size, not even my size.
  Matt, are you pissed about my not liking your long story sent privately quite long ago? Didn't I say then that I'm a fan of your poetry? Did you even believe me? Is that cleared up or part of what you mean by inbred hot-bed of mediocrity? I doubt inbred mediocrity can be hot.
  
  Matt Dennison, 56 minutes ago
  Of course not, Ann. It wasn't any good back then and I knew it.
  ;-)
  
  michael dickes, 50 minutes ago
  Uhm, why isn't the video working on any of this?
  I like David James too!
  Whenever I get up this early to write, my shoes fall off.
  
  Meg Pokrass, 47 minutes ago
  i like david james and also love him! but he is NOT pretty. he is something else!
  
  Meg Pokrass, 46 minutes ago
  God, Ann, I just wish I were there drinking with you! I am sorta drinking here with the cats.
  
  Meg Pokrass, 45 minutes ago
  yes, I took 3 of the rude comments of MaryAnne's down but she will no doubt continue this on the "Forum"
  
  Sally Houtman, 44 minutes ago
  I say thank God for David James.
  And I have had zero shots of Tequila.
  And I'm wearing my own pants.
  
  Meg Pokrass, 43 minutes ago
  it is after all "my wall" and i guess it feel safer here than the forum where bees swarm. i feel safer here as there is a sweet "delete" button, it being My wall, and I only have one wall. so.
  
  Meg Pokrass, 42 minutes ago
  I had champagne left over from a sober New Years eve.
  
  Meg Pokrass, 39 minutes ago
  to me the biggest lovely knowledge here is how much we adore David James, many of us. I say, Cheers to David James. And to my fat dog, Ben.
  
  Doug Bond, 39 minutes ago
  OMG!! Is that how the cats got so drunk?
  um...and btw, of all the above, Sally Houtman nails it.
  
  michael dickes, 35 minutes ago
  Can I atleast get a picture of the fat dog, Ben, wearing Cheryl Crow's pants and drinking tequila?
  
  Meg Pokrass, 24 minutes ago
  yes, you can Michael. I am not sure how, but yes you can.

• 
  Dolemite

  May 24, 08:16am

  (I snuck out and took this new profile pic)

• 
  Ann Bogle

  May 24, 08:37am

  <img src="http://m13.tmstatic.com/4/e/ml/298980-TWO-TEN-TEN-FIVE-Shorts-PANTS-3-4-length-shorts.jpg"height="150"width="100">

  The pants.

• 
  Ann Bogle

  May 24, 08:39am

  http://m13.tmstatic.com/4/e/ml/298980-TWO-TEN-TEN-FIVE-Shorts-PANTS-3-4-length-shorts.jpg

• 
  MichaelDickes

  May 24, 09:33am

  Now, if we can just get the pants on the dog and the paws off the bottle before he wakes up...

  Seriously, Matt is right...there has been much to be gained in this community. I have connected with some great folks here (all outta their feckin' minds and fine writers!) and I have received the critiques I need to improve my work. THAT, to me, is the best thing we can do for each other and for the craft. I don't need praise or favs. Nobody's getting famous or rich here, but there is a wealth of excellence being wrought, created and shared here. Been here for a couple of years now and still find no useful or humble purpose in the fav system. When browsing, do you tend to click on the stories with the most favs? What if the authors name could only be identified after the story is read? Ahh, now...settle your britches, because I would suggest that we either feed the fav system to the dog when he's sober, or put it in that pair of pants and send it down the road kickin' rocks.
  (I heard that)

• 
  Gill Hoffs

  May 24, 09:56am

  This is the first time I've logged in this year - and I apologise. I used to be on here all the time, and it would take a book or two to lay out properly how much I've learned from this place and the folk on it, how the diversity of writing has changed and shaped my writing for the better, and how many opportunities fictionaut has opened up to me.

  I still read pieces occasionally, generally because somebody's posted a link to facebook and piqued my interest, but due to moving house and country and other time consuming but necessary events, I haven't been logging in.

  The other thing, which probably sounds stupid but there y'go, is that I didn't want to hurt people's feelings or offend them by commenting on one piece but not another, so I've been putting off coming back on till I knew I'd have a good day or so to read widely and deeply of all fictionaut has to offer, and leave comments as I went. I know how much I used to appreciate receiving feedback, and how many new friends I made from being on here last summer.

  But I've realised there isn't likely to be that golden time of freedom [like a lot of you, or most of you, or all of you, I'm horribly busy with writing/editing/life just now] so this discussion feels, rightly or wrongly, like an opportunity to say why I've not been on, how bad I feel about it, and how I'm going to use this as a springboard to diving back in [my family's taking swimming lessons - pardon the reference!] and commenting once again. It won't be on all the stories, or even most of them. I'm an editor now as well as an author and mum, so I shower instead of bathe and cram what I can into every day. But I'll come on every week, read stories and poems by names I've never encountered as well as the ones I know, and comment as I go.

  Didn't mean/don't intend to hijack this, Meg. But this seems like the best place to say sorry and start again.

  As for my cat and drinking, well, Coraline has possibly THE most saliva of any cat I've ever know. She drools like the dog in Turner&Hooch when she's happy. If we drank together, one of us would drown.

• 
  See ya

  May 24, 10:08am

  This was something that needed mentioning some time ago. I'm glad you found a construction way of doing so here, Meg. I agree in full. The frequent work found again and again here is grand work, but it's not the only pieces worth having a look at at Fictionaut. The numbers just do not add up. There are so many members that, by simple statistics alone, we are bound to overlook fine work if we don't dig around more. I'm all for this discussion and I'm without reserve on the side of do-more-fishing here. One can do this still support the writers we've already come to love and look forward to. I have no doubt.

• 
  Linda Simoni-Wastila

  May 24, 10:32am

  Meg, thanks for bringing this up. I admit--I do go to some of my favorite writers in my very limited time here (I usually read Wednesday or Thursday evening). I also try to read a few stories/poems of folks I do not know, have not read, at that same time. But I do feel overwhelmed by the sheer volume of stories and so I will bring up the song I have sung before: MAYBE, just maybe, if folks posted pieces with less frequency all folks would get more exposure. It is not just a matter of being on the front wall for awhile, or even being on the recommended wall--it is a matter of how many words can any reader digest in one setting?

  I write slow, I read slow. I usually read, make some comments, then go back and afix my comments and stars after having spent an hour enjoying.

  I do practice what I preach, btw; if I post at all, it is once per week, with one piece going up as another enters the 6th-day twilight.

  Thanks for starting this conversation. Peace...

• 
  Linda Simoni-Wastila

  May 24, 10:50am

  And to echo from above:
  --I adore David James, the dude and his writing
  --YES to what Sally said
  --YES YES to cats who wear pants
  --YES YES YES to what Gessy said. Newbies, don't be shy--read and comment. Be voracious. I consider fictionaut a bootcamp of sorts--where else can you learn how to read and write from such a diverse and talented pool of writers and their works?

  Coffee's ready, happy day all. Peace...

• 
  Sam Rasnake

  May 24, 11:56am

  I agree with the idea at work in this post & thread.

  And so, plan to focus my reads on writers I've either not read before or have read only on occasion. There are many, many writers here. More, probably, than I can keep continued pace with.

  Will deliberate on the comment/fave method.

  Have already trimmed my own postings to the FN wall - five so far in 2012 - and will trim that more for the remaining part of the year.

• 
  Gill Hoffs

  May 24, 12:05pm

  If there were a header on the front page saying 'least commented', or something similar like 'least read', then that would make this easier.

• 
  Roberto C. Garcia

  May 24, 12:31pm

  Thanks for bringing this up Meg. It's a great point and it reveals other things we owe to each other as a community.

  I don't begrudge the writers who are frequently at the top of the recommended. There are only a handful of them and as much as we may want to believe they can multiply their faves the truth is they can't. Other writers (perhaps some that aren't faved as much) appreciate their stories too.

  The thing that drives me nuts is to read a story with 60+ views and no comments. No comments?? How's that possible? There must be some level of constructive feedback we can provide our fellow members, regardless of tastes. But then again, so much of our craft is subjective to taste. And so are the circles we gravitate to within our Fictionaut community.

  My process: I login, start reading from the top and work my way down. I'm not looking for specific people I'm just looking to escape with a great piece of writing and provide the writer what they are seeking here. Feedback.

  I agree with several things said here: Read and comment on more stories than you post. Maybe we should do away with Faves and instead require comments on each story we read. Be mindful that this is a microcosm of our world and as such there are groups, cliques etc.

  Great discussion.

  Thanks again Meg.

• 
  Darryl Price

  May 24, 02:09pm

  I'm gonna go ahead and jump on Roberto's bandwagon:Great discussion. Read and comment on more stories than you post. And I'll add: it's fun! I've commented on stories that have gotten zero faves before simply because I've found something wonderful in them that just suits me for some reason or I think the direction of the writer is brave or interesting, etc.There's nothing more thrilling to me than original thought set down in words.Unfortunately time and family matters right now prevent me from doing this on a regular basis, but when I do, that is take the time to explore, I've always been richly rewarded.We're in a gold mine here, folks!Plus, and I know you already know this, when I read a piece that is so very different from my own style it always inspires me like crazy, it opens the window and lets some fresh air in.Thanks Meg!We needed that! Very cool!

• 
  David Ackley

  May 24, 02:10pm

  Like Roberto, I'm kind of a random walk kind of Fictionaut reader, checking out whatever turns up, and when I can, perversely reading carefully the 4,000+ word pieces that too infrequently pop-up. The diligence, at least, in those seems to call for attention.

  What you said needed saying, Meg, and I'm glad it was you who said it, to give it the substance it deserves.

• 
  James Lloyd Davis

  May 24, 02:15pm

  This is unfortunate.

• 
  James Claffey

  May 24, 02:54pm

  there's much more to this than meets the eye. certainly the curve skews in terms of the "top" stories and those who write them. i'm curious about the numbers in terms of the way some stories have 750+ views, and that raises the question as to whether there are that many actual pairs of eyes on those stories, or is the system being fudged by spam bots? it is possible to click in and out of your story again and again and monitor the "acme" ego-pressure machine wrapped about the arm filling with self-importance gas, but surely nobody on fictionaut would engage in such a process? i'm in favor of commenting and reading more stories than i post, and as i said earlier, the FN support for my writing has meant a great deal to me. i remember when i posted my first stories and how excited i was when people left comments about them. and meg and maryanne were some of the first to do so, and are both great writers and advocates for the writers on here.

• 
  Joani Reese

  May 24, 03:31pm

  I read and comment on every piece I like straight down the board when I have the opportunity to do so, and I only post a piece of my own once every two weeks, if then. There are certain writers here whose work I prefer to others' and who I look forward to reading. That's a fact, and I'm not going to change my preferences, only add to them as I find and add new writers whose work I also admire. There have been two or three writers just in the last few months whose work has enriched my reading time, and for those new people I am grateful. Just as I prefer certain writers' work, I suppose certain writers like what I write and for that I am also grateful. If anyone is "faving" my work *automatically,* as Meg suggested is being done for some of the regularly recommended writers in her comments, please don't. As writers, we all have egos that need stroking. I'm not sure that there's another group of people (other than politicians and first-graders) who enjoy praise more than most writers do, but I would prefer real feedback from members, not a disingenuous response that expects I will respond in turn. I always assumed my work was worth a response if it received one. There are a few writers here who do seem to need to cultivate a following and that is unfortunate, but it is easily remedied by simply ignoring the sophomoric behavior and focusing on what really matters--discovering good work, no matter whose name is attached to it.

  There have been quite a few writers and poems/stories I've read and remarked on here that received little feedback from other members that I considered excellent by any standards. That is a pity, but in reality, it's not going to make or break a writer to be recognized at Fictionaut. Fictionaut is fun. It's a place to give one's writing the opportunity to see the light of day a second time. It's a place where one can be exposed to ideas and suggestions outside of the rather isolated lives we writers must cultivate, especially through some of the interesting Forum discussions and the private workshops where writers can support one another by critiquing work not yet ready for prime time. I appreciate the opportunity to be a member, and I thank Jurgen and Carson for providing us a unique forum in which to interact. I am sorry to see writers whose work I admire leave Fictionaut. I can think of two right now whose work I miss, but sometimes this place can be a distraction, and I understand why some people need to break away.

  I also think Gessy's advice to new people about diving in is excellent. Like any endeavor consisting of individuals, you get out of a community what you put in. I was a member for almost a year before I began to participate on a regular basis. I learned simply posting something and then expecting people to connect with the work without offering any kind of feedback to others doesn't create community. It's a solipsistic endeavor at best, so I also urge new members to comment on writing they find compelling.

  This discussion brought up some ideas for me about helping newer members to learn how to function more easily within the community, so I'll post a separate primer on the Forum, and I encourage anyone with more tips to add to it. We can all help writers who feel marginalized here to feel more welcome without sacrificing our own preferences for certain styles and sensibilities.

• 
  James Lloyd Davis

  May 24, 03:51pm

  There are some seriously hurtful comments in this thread. Truly unfortunate and damaging. I agree with Jurgen that the letter should not have been put up on the front page, but I doubt very much that its continuance here serves any useful purpose.

• 
  MaryAnne Kolton

  May 24, 03:53pm

  Just one of my "rude" postings that was selectively removed by Meg:

  Gessy, You have discovered the secret! When I first started here, just about a year ago, I read everything and commented. Then I finally got up the nerve to post my first story and the number of comments was quite surprising and greatly appreciated. Everyone likes to get feedback on their work. It's the human element in us. The more you read and try to find even one good thing to comment on, the more your work will be read. . . Best of luck, MaryAnne

• 
  MaryAnne Kolton

  May 24, 04:18pm

  As I said before, I agree wholeheartedly that the new work of the new people here should be supported whenever possible. And have tried to do so whenever possible.

  I still feel this discussion did not belong on the fiction page and am happy to see it continue here at the Forum.

  Unfortunately, for some, posting here does not allow for selective deletion of opinions we do not agree with or which may not further are own personal agendas.

  Please continue to express your opinions - all of them. That's what makes this community such a vibrant, nurturing and wonderful place to be.

• 
  John Minichillo

  May 24, 04:48pm

  I've been at Fn since the beginning but have mostly been away for the past two years. At that time the community had solidified and while people came and went there was a core group that has remained at the center in all that time.

  These are writers I know because of Fn and I think they are talented. The community aspect / interaction takes more time than I have, however. Mostly, I don't produce enough to keep active here. If I have something I feel like posting, I will. I understand that the way these things go, it's most likely I won't get faves or comments unless I've been faving and commenting on the work of others, that's only natural. So I don't let it bother me. It didn't post specifically with the expectation of shooting to the top of the most faved stories in the sidebar.

  It does mean that Fn most faved stories aren't as valuable to the casual visitor to the site as it could be.

  There were a few major developments over the course of the growth of Fn that weren't entered into lightly, and Jurgen put a lot of thought into what he might do to encourage the best community here, though his philosophy is mostly hands off.

  The first was when Fn went "public." At first only members, who had joined by invite could see Fn. This gave it an air of exclusivity, and a lot of really great writers who were publishing a lot on the web came and went, mostly out of curiosity. If you go through the archives by date, you won't see this development quite as it happened, because writers left when the site went "public" and because writers have always taken down stories once they'd been accepted for publication.

  But during this period I became aware of a lot of writers who already knew each other. It was my introductiion to the internet literary community (of which Fn now is only a very small part) and I'm grateful to Fn for that. It made it easy. I didn't have to go looking for writers because they kept showing up.

  The second development was the introduction of the groups. Jurgen was always optimistic that the groups would allow splintering intimacy and that this would counter some of the clique-dominance of the site as a whole. Private groups could continue to function as Fn had in the early days before going "public." There may be some active groups I'm unaware of but it seems the groups never really took off or worked in some of the ways they could.

  The last development was to limit how much a writer could post, with a 24 hour time period. There was a problem at the time, that as Fn grew the rapid posting made it so that a story could be pushed off the front page in an hour. Sometimes someone would join and post ten stories in a row. Stuff like that.

  Personally, my feeling at the time was that the time limit should be longer. That potentially someone could still post every day or every other day. And so while the time limit slowed down the feed a bit, it did nothing to counter the dominance of a handful of writers at the site.

  While it might sound harsh. I think a one-month time limit would do away with the problem without necessarily doing away with the community. If a writer could only post once a month, they wouldn't be able to always turn up in the most faved sidebar. It wouldn't prevent them from commenting, faving, or participating in the community in other ways. The community would more likely grow as a direct result. And it would also discourage commenting and faving with the expectation of getting the same in return. The easiest way to bring diversity to the community isn't encouraging people to comment more - but for them to post less.

  I don't intend this as an attack on the community or on any one individual, but there are very ways to be hands off while also encouraging best behavior through the program engine itself.

  I've been to other writers communities where this is much worse. Authonomy, for example, requires posting novel-length work and because writers are competing for a chance to be read by the HM editors, there's some pretty bad behavior. People will comment and fave without reading, with the expectation of getting the same in return. Over there, I'm sure there are some really wonderful people, but it's not that difficult to get poor work to float to the top.

  Here at Fn very short work has always been more likely to be read. That's just the nature of writing on the web. Good long work should get read, but if it doesn't, that's probably OK. Fn has a clean interface at least, and it reads well across all kinds of platforms. It's a great place to read and post long work, even if it will never get the same kind of attention.

  This post, for example, is probably too long to be read ;)

  Let me say in closing that Jurgen is a good friend and this thing he's given really is a gift. Lots of writers have benefited directly and I'm just one. I know plenty of people who got solicited for work because of Fn and plenty of others who forged good frienships because of it. I also spent a couple of weeks reading for Fn Selects and I knew I would have no problem finding great work that didn't end up in the sidebar.

• 
  Roberto C. Garcia

  May 24, 05:07pm

  Hi John, yours is a very thoughtful and practical post. My comment is not a direct response to you per se but to the entire thread.

  A part of me wonders if this concern as a whole (The Note) could have taken place behind FN doors and between Jurgen, Meg and Carson or other staff. It seems that, whether intentional or not, comments expressed at this forum have judged the work of some of the writers in our community as not good enough to be at the top or that their work is only there because of some "high school" mean club. Something about that doesn't seem right.

  It's also unfortunate that there seems to be an air of (I don't know if superiority is the right word) superiority lurking about. If the issue is Faves, then that can be remedied easily. Remove the faves. Take the brass ring aspect of it out and you remove the competition, which is also a factor at work here. I think.

• 
  Mary Alston Capps

  May 24, 05:18pm

  As a professional librarian and (more significantly) a taxonomy specialist, I'm a little surprised by the limited tags used by this bunch of otherwise very creative people (although I'm just as guilty). I like being able to crowd source with tagging, as it creates some unusual and unique search terms - but it might be helpful to have a set taxonomy, with standard terms to pick from, but with the option of the author adding unique tags (nothing is more frustrating than searching for term and missing an entry because the tag was misspelled or hyphenated or not hyphenated).

  Why do I think this is important? Because sometimes when I come here, I *want* to read something about a particular topic/genre/form and will search for it. Generally, I'm disappointed by the results, because I'm certain there should be more stories under a particular subject. I also truly believe this will facilitate getting more and different authors read by more and different people, which might help with the Popular Kids problem we're having. I would be happy to help in the creation of such a taxonomy, if the Powers That Be or Do or Doo-Be-Doo feel this is a worthwhile upgrade. If not, no worries. I've never been one of the popular kids anyway.
  ;-)

• 
  Roberto C. Garcia

  May 24, 05:20pm

  "Popular Kids problem" That's awesome Mary. Couldn't have phrased it better.

• 
  John Minichillo

  May 24, 05:30pm

  Roberto,

  Those discussions did go on behind closed doors a long time ago. Jurgen conducted an anonymous survey and enouraged comments from the community, and this issue was one of the most common problems percieved by users.

  But anythng that's done top-down is going to have to be built into the system. And any rules or any other community-based solutions aren't going to work.

  I don't think the faves are necessarily the problem. It feels good to fave. It feels good to get faved. It's just the FB moment we live in and it's much easier than commenting. But honestly, the comments are most often short and positive anyway. It's just the nature of the community here.

  The intention of the faves was to let the community select the best work. While that often works, what is best is always subjective, and I think it's fair to say that there are community biases here.

  People use ficftionaut for different reasons, which was something else that was clear in the questionaire. Early on some online editors felt threatened by it. Over time folks got used to it but they still weren't sure what it was: was it for critique? Was it in liue of a personal website? Was it a way of creating a kind of lit journal without having to submit?

  Becuase Fn never had a directly stated purpose, people could use it as they wanted. If you wanted feedback you might ask for it. Or you could create a group for feedback. But it's always been my opinion that the way the comments are formatted doesn't really make it easy to give any kind of extensive serious critiques. But it may also be that most folks aren't really interested in that. If you give someone critiquie they don't ask for, they may not appreciate it, or you, much.

  I've alwyas seen Fn as a way to get the work read. To post already published work, or recent work that may be on submission, but that the writer is excited about. Or something unusual the writer may not know where to try to place.

  And there have always been elitiste reactions to Fn. There will always be folks who don't quite get it because they only see it as having one purpose.

  I think limiting posts to the main page while allowing as many posts to groups as anyone wants is one possible change, but I also know that it would require some big time changes to the program, and who knows what the end result would really be...

• 
  Gessy Alvarez

  May 24, 05:40pm

  Roberto, I felt a little of the "high school" mean club vibe too, but I always choose to ignore it...There is an underlying issue here which is not so easy to pinpoint so I won't.

  What I've most enjoyed from Fictionaut is the readership that an unknown writer develops. There's a group of people attracted to my style of writing. Somehow they found me...I'm not sure how. I never had a readership before Fictionaut. This bump gave me the courage (or audacity) to post original work on my blog. Not everything I write mind you, just the stuff I come up with to keep my writing life exciting.

  I do not teach nor do I edit journals. I'm just a girl with lots of ideas and I write every day and I read everyday. I am "trained," and believe me I'm chastised and glorified for that.

  Competition is healthy as long as mutual respect exists. I hope that doesn't disappear from Fictionaut.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  May 24, 05:42pm

  Having been on this site for about 2 years now, I read the work of writers who generally don't disapoint, and U try and read a few new writers whenever possible. I feel I support this community by reaching out to many writers, established and new, by doing their interviews in the Monday Chat. The writers who repeatedly make the top of the list are there because their work is very good.

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 24, 05:45pm

  Thanks so much to the community for your insightful comments on this thread. What a great group of creatives we are. What a great home we have here.

  Yes, James Lloyd Davis - MaryAnne Kolton's attack-words were taken down from my sidebar by me. And in the light of day, this was best. It was a discussion that clearly needed to happen. Evidence: Read all the notes here, how people are coming out and saying WHY they like it here, what is lacking, and what can be made better, we are acting like a community. A good one.

  Jurgen did the right thing by moving it here.
  And the conversation did remain productive and thank you to everyone who is talking here.

  James Lloyd, and MAK, and other people who are angry at me can be angry at me here on the forum. I would discourage personal letters to me just because I find them icky, but I'm sure I'll get them.

  I can't for the life of me imagine how this discussion of making the site more fair and active could hurt anyone who cares about this community or why I was treated badly on my wall last night by one writer (MAK). But hey we are all human and none of us really have the zen-genes programmed in yet by clonology. Maybe we will in a hundred years be zen-bots.

  Lastly, Matt Dennison's profile picture made my morning. His poems make my days. Somehow they never end up on the wall of recommended pieces, which is just... mind boggling to me. I know he doesn't back-scratch. I have asked him to scratch my back and he just will not do so. He blamed it on having no fingernails. We should all have such short finger nails.

  Thank you everyone even if you do play a bit of gaming here.

  Confession: I used to auto-fave, and realized I was doing it and stopped. Why? This old guy here, a good writer named David James said "Meg, why are you gushing over this stuff and faving stuff that is not so good?" I was mad at him for telling me this. So mad that I stopped doing it. I stopped returning faves with faves. I listened to him. I reformed! For David James respect, I reformed.

  Since then, I am not popular. You will never see my stories on the wall of favorites anymore. I am not part of the clique now. And I am so happy not to be, as I can be a real writer and reader again.

• 
  Roberto C. Garcia

  May 24, 05:49pm

  Hi Gessy, I agree with what you're saying and it looks like a change is gonna come, oh yes it is. I too have a FN community of writers I truly admire and whose work I follow. In turn, I've been found and that feels great. Let's hope we can keep it up. I feel good about the fact that I read everyone from the first story and on down, regardless of name. I can't fault anyone for writing what the majority of people on the site like. Thanks for your responses Gessy!

• 
  W.F. Lantry

  May 24, 06:57pm

  "The last development was to limit how much a writer could post, with a 24 hour time period. There was a problem at the time, that as Fn grew the rapid posting made it so that a story could be pushed off the front page in an hour."

  John,

  I have the opposite problem. I use the site a little differently than some. I can write about a thousand words a day. I like to write a story, and put it up fresh. It's not a prescription for everybody, it's just a quirk of mine. Knowing the story's going up right away makes me *very* careful with every single sentence. I don't mind that I don't get a lot of reads, nor many favs. But the few comments I do get keep me on track. I hold them in mind for the next day of writing.

  But when I write something, and find it can't go up today... nor the next day ... or even the day after, I tend to simply find something else to do, to wait, to not write the next day's story. I know this rule you mention is a good thing for the way many people use the site, and I know every rule is written in someone's blood, that there are strong reasons for such policies. But this particular policy doesn't help this particular writer. It causes me to write less, rather than more.

  And isn't that one of the goals of the site? More and better writing? That's what troubles me about this discussion. Look at all the ink spilled in the middle of this thread over what amounts to calumny and negative energy. One of the best things about Fictionaut is that we're supportive of each other. Believe me, I know other sites where that's not the case, where snark and calumny is the standard default setting. So I hope this trend doesn't continue, and that we can get back soonest to productive harmony.

  Best,

  Bill

• 
  Marcus Speh

  May 24, 07:04pm

  So far, I noticed only one author that I haven't encountered before through a story or a forum discussion, and I certainly don't read everything...So this discussion is an example of the group at the center of the community as John Minichillo called it, looking at itself and its habits. As such, purely for logical reasons, it cannot yield surprising results and indeed it hasn't, not to me anyway. Still, a necessary checkpoint, it seems.

  @Robert: one gets 60 views and no comments because people who don’t have an account (are not members) can still view. When Philip Roth joins and tells a taxi driver about it, you’ll see 600 views and no comments at first. My current piece has 195 views and 23 comments right now (13 favs), because I announced it at Twitter and it’s been linked (by Jürgen) to his Tulpendiebe Tumblr site. It is up on the “recommended” wall which still gives me a little boost but much less than when I joined (I think) more than two years ago (as Finnegan Flawnt).

  Don't let this post put you off from giving me comments, stars or general encouragement. I need it. We all need it, I think. I need it more than most because I'm all alone here (do you see that tear?). And if you feel alone too, as a writer, you deserve it too.

  This thread has made me think about my own current priorities: I don’t post much anymore myself (about once a month seems right). In the beginning, I posted stories before they were published, because I hadn’t published anything. That has changed now and I tend to post stuff that’s been published (or prompted by one of Fictionaut’s many quirky contests and happenings). I find myself engage more in the forums. This is all politically correct and not ver exciting. Time for some confessing, I’m catholic after all, I’ve had the basic training:

  I’ve never had an easy time reading other people’s work on Fictionaut (no, not yours, of course). The reason is that I no longer read for entertainment (I did that when I was 4 and I stopped when I became 40 and began to write seriously) but only to learn to write better or to do someone a favor because they asked explicitly or implicitly (by reading and commenting on my work). Despite this laziness or drive to make best use of my time, I’ve read a lot of stories and poems and posts on Fictionaut, faved freely and commented widely. In fact, that is my only real trick (and tip): when I comment, I also get to write and writing is what I love most of all. I rarely find it worthwhile to say “love this”, or “yes”. When I comment I look for something that has made my coming and reading and writing worth my while. So if you find it difficult to find the time or inclination to comment (and most people seem to), turn the comment into a piece of actual writing. Make it count. (One might also see it as my deficiency: the casual comment and banter is the privilege of Americans: I can’t do it; most Europeans I think suck at it, Germans certainly do).

  @Mary: Personally and professionally, I don't believe in taxonomies. Taxonomies are indeed the life blood of librarians, but librarians haven't build the world wide web (nor are they awfully good at using it for their purposes). This is not a swing against librarians whom I love but against the idea that any form of technology will save the soul of this merry bunch of online writers. This is an ecosystem already, and in my experience, ecosystems evolve organically, unpredictably, chaotically. While I’m convinced it doesn’t matter what you do it will still be fun and exciting to change things around here—including some much-needed developments and fixes. But it seems to work anyway, which is marvelous, mostly I think because the idea behind it brilliant and satisfies people’s needs.

  By the way, talk about gratitude: for me as a researcher of digital communities and virtual identities, this discussion is pure gold. It saves me time, probably weeks, and lots of effort. I'm willing to pay you for it. I know: I'll pay you by giving you faves. But hold on, I'm doing that anyway. Perhaps I dedicate a paper to the multitude of brains connected to keyboards who're active here.

  And now I’m going to prepare tomorrow’s lecture and I will tell my students about you lovely people.

• 
  Roberto C. Garcia

  May 24, 07:22pm

  Hi Marcus! Now it's a party! I still think that if you read a story on FN you should comment. I thought that's the point or a part of it at least. I know that as writers we spread the link to non members but if we view a writers work as members then we should post a comment (feedback).

  Meg, I admire your work and gusto for writing,for Fictionaut and for writers in general. Do you really think this situation is to the level of "I am not part of the clique now. And I am so happy not to be, as I can be a real writer and reader again." I don't know. I don't think that's necessary. If we want to bring attention to all of Fictionauts members there are more constructive ways to do it. Just an opinion and nothing personal.

• 
  Marcus Speh

  May 24, 07:30pm

  @Robert yes, i love this. (like that? it seems overly dramatic.)

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 24, 07:36pm

  I don't take offense at all. But, yeah. I was cut off from getting much story-love as soon as I stopped re-faving the regular's stories by rote. In a few cases, I was ordered (essentially, by private note) to favorite pieces, which made it clear to me that I had to get out of the unproductive cycle.

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 24, 07:38pm

  too dramatic is something I have in my genes! sorry Marcus!

• 
  Susan Tepper

  May 24, 07:53pm

  I don't see the clique thing here on the wall that Meg is discussing. Somehow, Joani Reese, Robert Vaughan, Misti, Sally Houtman and Dennis Mahagin (who is a great poet and hardly gets more than 6 faves a poem ever), well these people do not a clique make. Sally and Misti and Dennis are relatively new to F'naut but all are top notch writers. Joani and Robert are less new, but again are top notch. Then there's Claffey on the wall (newish and top notch)and some others, such as Carol Reid, who are very good. I don't believe these people are exchanging fav bribes. I don't get offers to exchange and never have. I used to be on the wall all the time purely by reader's choice. Lately not so much. I never had a story get into the really high fav nbrs. I think writers go up and down in favor, and right now Meg and myself and some others, who used to be on the wall all the time, have fallen back for some newer voices. That's how I see this whole thing.

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 24, 08:10pm

  Susan, the regulars you just mentioned to disprove the idea of clique, yes these are VERY FAMILIAR NAMES TO ALL -- 10? and how many members of Fictionaut are there?

  over 3,000.

  where are they? At least 30 i know have stopped trying. I should get Tiff Holland in here to write about her experience.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  May 24, 08:16pm

  I'm sorry Meg, but I don't follow what you are saying? If it's a clique, then are these people the clique? Were you and I a clique when we made the top 6 for many weeks in a row? I never was asked to exchange but I was way up there. As for how many members are on f'naut, there are thousands and many of the stories and poems posted fly by now before anyone can see them. But the people who write consistently good work, well you automatically want to read them. I can't imagine, for instance, not reading a Sam Rasnake poem. It wouldn't occur to me to pass that up. Or a Marcus Speh story, or Beate, or or or...and by that time I'm pretty much done reading. I do check the Recent stories and if something they put in the sidebar sounds good, I will read it. But I have read a lot of bad work here too. I stop at the second paragraph if the work doesn't appeal to me.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  May 24, 08:19pm

  Tiff Holland is a great writer. I have no idea why her work didn't 'click' as you seem to be saying. But guess what? I have had many stories that got one fav! A few poems that got none. That's the way it goes.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  May 24, 08:23pm

  I just this week did Misti on the Monday Chat. Her story "Bad Wiring" only had a few faves when I picked it as the chat story. I think the story is pure brilliance. But others apparently did not, hence so few faves. What does all this mean? Nothing. It means writing is subjective to the reader. My new book is fabulous. Have you bought it? How many people on this site of thousands have bought From the Umberplatzen? Less than 1 percent. Does that mean I stink? No. It's just the way it goes.

• 
  MaryAnne Kolton

  May 24, 08:37pm

  Meg, I'm not aware of attacking you, merely expressing my opinions, as were you. Since you unfairly chose to delete my comments, there is no way for me to prove that.

  I was able to repost a comment to Gessy that you had deleted, which did not mention you at all.

  As for being angry with you - I'm not angry with anybody. Life is way too short for that. James and I have always supported you and your writing and for my part, will continue to do so.

  I have never and will not be sending you "icky" personal emails. Why would you encourage people to think that would be the case?

  The only personal emails you and I have ever exchanged are the ones that occurred when I interviewed you for THIS Magazine, at which time I felt I was extremely accommodating and sensitive to your needs.

  You started a discussion about a topic that obviously need some air time. I disagreed with the way you brought it to our attention and the place where it was posted.

  You received a tremendous amount of support for your thoughts and I'm not sure what else you are looking for.

  I would love for this to stop here. And as far as I'm concerned it has.
  

• 
  James Claffey

  May 24, 08:41pm

  no. there's no exchange of fav bribes. thanks susan for your generous comment above. i've been here since august and feel relatively new, and somewhat "outside the crowd," in terms of not belonging to any particular group or clique, but that's nothing to lose sleep over. when i log in the first thing i do is click recent stories to see what's new, and sometimes i find myself reading people completely new to me, and also searching for those writers whose work i know will hit the mark for me. a new story from sally houtman or meg pokrass, or poem from matt dennison, or work from marcus speh, carol reid, gessy alvarez, gets my attention straight away. but when i discover someone new it's great. alison wells work was some i wasn't familiar with, and the hidden writing is where the motherlode sometimes resides. sure there's a gamut of quality and kinds of writing here, but the community is what you make it and cultivating pieces to read is like organizing your bookshelves: sometimes you go to old familiars, and sometimes you take down one you've not read before. the short version is that FN gives us the stories to work with and each of us figures out how best to do the reading and commenting in our own way.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  May 24, 08:44pm

  MAK, you are escalating here with Meg. If you want it to stop, you should stop finger pointing. She isn't even involved with you now, she is in a discussion with me about how the site is running vis a vis faves.

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 24, 09:04pm

  The fave bribes days do seem to be over. At least for me they are, the one person who continually worked me this way has stopped, it helped when I ended the discourse and said NO MORE to him. Since then, anytime it comes up now, someone hinting I must fave a story, I don't respond at all.

  James - i doubt any of this would apply to you or your world here. You have offered us nothing but good work, good support, and you are a very generous person here. You expect nothing in return. You exemplify to me what we want to see more of. Some of us.... we have long histories here.

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 24, 09:10pm

  Susan, i don't think this is a discussion with you but we can start another thread for that if you like.

  MAK - I stopped the escalation by not going into any snipery last night. Jurgen moved it here rightly, so your wishes were met. Yes, its done.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  May 24, 09:10pm

  Actually Claffey came to me just the other day and offered me a sack of avocados from his ranch if I faved.... tee hee...

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 24, 09:12pm

  hee haws

• 
  Susan Tepper

  May 24, 09:12pm

  Meg, no thanks. Good bye to you all and may you all have a peaceful evening.

• 
  James Claffey

  May 24, 09:17pm

  Ay yi yi: the cat's out of the bag. The great avocado for faves scandal. Glory be. Seriously, the writing community is just that, and like any family has its falling outs and issues. Let's all hold to the now and keep writing and encouraging others to as well...

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 24, 09:18pm

  To end (maybe?hopefully?) this interesting thread which does happen here in FORUM, I just received a very nice postcard from an acupuncturist I have never heard of named Larry C. Forsberg. It says: Happy Birthday To You.

  And on that happy note, I will say thanks again to everyone here, and peace be with all the merry people of this land!

• 
  Ramon Collins

  May 24, 11:52pm

  As Prof. Giovanni Costigan taught at me many years ago: “No matter how sophisticated we think we are, we’re still very tribal."

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 25, 12:05am

  Ramon, you hit the nail on the head as always. I so agree. why pretend otherwise? All we can do is try to even things out as best we can. If it is at all possible.

• 
  Susan Gibb

  May 26, 05:31am

  Jeepers creepers, I've done more reading here on this thread than I've done in the past year here, and I do apologize for my absence.

  When I started here a couple years ago I used to read everything posted. I have never used the "Recommended" page, but go to the "Recent" instead. I commented a lot and faved a lot. Eventually I was just not able to keep up and started scanning, usually still reading every flash fiction--and that's my personal preference. Then I put the Recent Stories page on a news feed and read from there.

  I honestly then, and even now, don't pay attention to the faves or the most read, or the recommended aspects of Fictionaut. I've met so many great folks here and it certainly was the impetus to my being published. Nowadays, I don't even submit my own work much less have time to read here regularly. These "problems" at Fictionaut have come up before, and my only complaint was the frequency with which some people posted, using this as a personal website podium for their work and when the group grew in size, as someone mentioned, a piece would be pushed off the front page within an hour by newcomer exuberance. So I stopped posting my work at all.

  I love you all, and will attempt to get more time to read your work. I may avoid faving altogether, but for me, if something I've read really gets to me, I must comment, even if it's a simple "Nice."

• 
  Darryl Price

  May 26, 02:58pm

  Can we get back to work now?

• 
  Matthew Robinson

  May 26, 07:37pm

  What if there were an option for an author to disable faves/comments on his/her stories, like you can disable wall comments? An author can choose to say, Here is my story, no strings attached.

  Sorry if someone else said this already, I've been grazing.

  Constructive note aside, what else I can gather from this thread is that everyone wants to go fave my stories. Well, you can! Just click my name to the left of this note! My stories are below my profile picture! Go fave them all at your will!

  One last unrelated thought: people keep telling me I'm a narcissist. Does that mean people are afraid of my sexy?

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 26, 07:43pm

  Matthew - you can delete wall comments.

  Yes, we do all want to fave your stories!

  Let me see about the sexy thing of which you speak.

  Darryl - sure, get back to work, am assuming most people have done so!

• 
  Dolemite

  May 26, 08:35pm

  (Matthew--did you write this lyric?)

  I'm too sexy for my story, too sexy for my story. So sexy it hurts...

• 
  Matthew Robinson

  May 26, 08:57pm

  Yes, Matt! I did! That's from my international hit, "My Sexy Is Too Sexy For My Sexy, which Has Led to Serious Health Complications"! Really glad you recognized it.

• 
  Dolemite

  May 26, 09:06pm

  "Has Led to Serious Health Complications"

  Be careful out there...

  ;l-)

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 26, 10:32pm

  dangers lurk in our sexy hearts.

• 
  Matthew Robinson

  May 26, 11:19pm

  I literally almost died when Justin Timberlake was bringing sexy back. He was talking about me.

• 
  brian warfield

  May 26, 11:42pm

  I think I use this site to try out new ideas and see if they are worthwhile or for putting up published stories to gain a few extra eyes that might not have seen the story where it was published.
  I am grateful that my stories have been picked out by editors, but I don't really know if the lack of faves for those same stories means anything.
  I don't really expect ever to be able to join the 25+ fav group. None of my stories have even broken 10. Does that mean my stories/poems are bad? Maybe. But not necessarily. This is just another outlet for my ideas to get into a forum where they are read. And if that is successful, I am happy. If circle-jerking is happening, I can't really expect them to stop on my behalf.
  I'd like to do more critical commentary and see more critical commentary instead of simply quoting the story in question. I'd like to see more collaborations and analysis. But that requires work and sometimes it is hard enough (for me at least) just to get the story out.
  I think this post is an important issue to remember to make the best use of this site.

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 26, 11:50pm

  thank you Brian!

  uh... the answer is NO - THEY ARE NOT "BAD" AT ALL, there is often no correlation between quality and number of favorites here whatsoever. Note Steve Himmer's "Editor's Eye" - in which 3 amazing pieces were overlooked entirely, some of the finest writing here. Thanks.

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 26, 11:59pm

  FYI:

  One of the stories selected by Necessary Fiction's legendary editor Steve Himmer was Brian Warfield's story, "Boy/Girl" which (had) received 0 favorites. Cautionary, yes?

  ...anyone who hasn't seen Steve Himmer's Editor's Eye feature. Take a look.

  http://www.fictionaut.com/blog/2012/05/22/editors-eye-steve-himmer/

• 
  brian warfield

  May 27, 12:10am

  I can't seem to find “The Farmer’s Wife” by Mary Hamilton.

• 
  Chris Galvin

  May 27, 12:22am

  I've been trying to read and comment on stories that have fewer reads, comments and stars, though sometimes those do go on to become stories with more or the most - but I heartily approve of giving everyone equal time. I click on the newest stories, and also try to look at stories by people who are kind enough to comment on mine. The important thing here is to be a writers' community. Of course, people will check out their fave writers, but it's good to expose yourself to other stuff too. Reading a wide variety also contributes to being a better writer.

  Meg, I agree that we shouldn't auto-fave; that's not the point, is it? Sometimes, a piece deserves a good comment, but not quite a star. But I'm sure not everyone will agree with me.

• 
  Ann Bogle

  May 27, 12:24am

  Meg or Brian, is there a link to Brian's "Boy/Girl"? Would love to read it.

• 
  brian warfield

  May 27, 01:01am

  http://www.fictionaut.com/stories/brian-warfield/boy-girl--2

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 27, 04:39am

  oh, and by the way, my strongest (...er...) work ever is up. Take a look!

  http://www.fictionaut.com/stories/meg-pokrass/bob-my-horse

  It has wow, 18 favorites right now! It must be really good. I will send this to the Paris Review!

  Oh silly me, to create controversy about the fave system. I am so well loved here I should just shut up and be mum.

• 
  Jim V

  May 27, 04:46am

  Anyone who says Meg is wrong is not being honest, intellectually or otherwise.

• 
  MichaelDickes

  May 27, 02:43pm

  So, anyhoozy....kill the fav.

• 
  James Lloyd Davis

  May 27, 03:48pm

  I'm with Michael. Dump the fave.

• 
  stephen hastings-king

  May 27, 04:34pm

  first off, do not underestimate justin timberlake. well, maybe do not underestimate jack dixon. hard to know. the case in point:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B63LV7Sf5pE

  i have never been interested in or impressed by the whole fave thing. i can understand why it'd serve a kind of function for presenting an aspect of the site to some presumptive wider net public (who are those people anyway?) but it seems to me to create a sense of insularity that is not the intent of anyone in particular and which runs counter most of the other aspects of what the folk who use fn have made of it.

  i much prefer the editor's eye feature, really, because it bypasses all that. and i like the anonymity of the editor prior to the appearance of the feature for the same reason. and the outside editors seem to me better at providing a sense of the diversity of what folk are doing here, which would seem to me the point of the fave mechanism.

  the question i suppose is whether there's an open-ended supply of editors out there, or whether it might be interesting to have some mode of getting folk from inside the community to play the role.

  so there we are. and now, on another front, it's a sunday morning and you may be asking yourself....what does happen when fela anikulapo kuti and de la soul were to get mashed up?

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVed2mrXmbc

• 
  Susan Tepper

  May 27, 04:35pm

  This entire posting from the first sentence was a load of crap. If you don't get any faves, chances are your story isn't that good. Or it's too long. Or maybe just boring to people. If a guest editor combs through the listings, chances are he/she will pull up some goood work that has been overlooked. Good. BUT... who says the guest editor is GOD for choosing great stories??? What a totally pathetic argument. If Meg was getting to the top of the page every week like she used to, this posting never would have occurred. A lot of really good writers are threatening to leave Fictionaut on account of all this. Very nice result! Brava!

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 27, 04:43pm

  thanks for your gracious thoughts Susan.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  May 27, 04:46pm

  you mean honest thoughts Meg. this is damaging to fictionaut if people are talking about leaving. you set this up to get attention. period. well you got it. so have fun.

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 27, 04:54pm

  i wanted to avoid putting this on the forum entirely because I said to myself, Susan will end this somehow with angry bile and cruelty to (me) . That was why I started it on the story page, I knew the last words would be furious, sad, and slanderous. Susan, you have become legendary for extremely personal assaults here. Sadly. I have no personal gripe with you, but I think maybe it is time to drink some chamomile tea.

• 
  stephen hastings-king

  May 27, 05:16pm

  i am a little baffled as to why anyone would get their knickers in such a twist as to contemplate leaving over this. and the whole recourse to what is now dueling populations of people not present in the discussion who feel inclined or disinclined to participate or not in the community is little more than an exercise in wielding symbolic power. it's tedious. so please stop it.

  to my mind anyway, the issue that's raised here is not a personal one, but more about what i see an unintended side-effects of a mode of doing things that's benign in itself. so maybe opening up a discussion.

  if the comment about the god-editor was directed at my post, i'd simply point out that nothing in what i wrote could lead one to imagine that i saw the guest editor as anything other than an alternative to the fave system.

  i thought about it and wondered what the function of the recommended stories feature was really. and it seemed to me to be as i said, a way of streamlining something of what's posted here into a form that people trawling the net who stumble onto the site might find useful as a kind of orientation.
  and it does and does not serve that purpose.

  speaking for myself, i have found it an immensely useful and interesting thing, being able to put things up and have a collective of writers take a look at them or not as the case may be. i've learned an enormous amount from the process over the past couple years or however long it's been.

  but i've also spent a long time involved with experimental music and long ago figured out that whether people like x or y says far more about their aesthetic preferences than it does about the work itself. people simply operate in different frame of reference. in the end, you have to learn to trust your own process and maybe a few people who will talk seriously and openly with you to know what's "really going on"...

  think about it: that people buy more albums by lil wayne than they do by xenakis. that doesn't mean that lil wayne is somehow objectively better than xeankis. it's merely an indicator of differences in preference, which follow from differences in frames of reference, differences in underlying notions like symmetry or the other evaluations that lead one to find x interesting or pretty and y not so much.

  so to say the opposite, that because more people like lil wayne that he is better than xenakis, or anything like that, is absurd.

  what this fave mechanism provides is an indicator of what the numerically preponderant aesthetic preferences are here. that's it. that's all such mechanisms ever show.

  and to be clear i've never had a problem with how people react or don't to my pieces--i'm pleased that folk read them and that some seem to like them and this for different reasons, i imagine. i'm interested in what folk say, but not so much in how many say them.
  
  but it's a lovely afternoon and i'm going to go outside now.

• 
  David James

  May 27, 05:35pm

  Ms. Tepper, I marked you down as undecided. List those leaving and I will ask them to stay, or better yet, maybe introduce them to a list of those that have already left for the reasons to which Ms. Pokrass referred. Were this to happen, I would ask them to compare notes. Perhaps a synthesis would emerge. I don't pretend to write well, but I do read well. Some well-written, carefully created stories deserve and get favorited by lots of folks. I haven't been visiting here very long, a couple of years and, thus, I'm certainly not a full-fledged member of the community. But honestly, I wonder, sometimes, if "fav" isn't a lot like "like" on facebook. To me, in some cases, "noted", might be a better term.

  Oh, and sorry for so many commas. I told you I don't write well.

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 27, 05:47pm

  Hi David. Yes, exactly. Fave has come to mean, "like" or even "yep".

  many many have left here because of the feeling that they had to auto-fave others and play the game or they will have their work ignored. And it is exactly what happens.

  Some of the strongest writers I know (I can list maybe 20) look at what is at the top of the wall here, shrug, and chose a better writing group somewhere else. We never see them again.

  On that wall: Every week are the same people. I won't list them here but we know the names in our sleep. They have become local celebrities in this community, and of course they are upset by this. It is their turf.

  When the stories are read by writers outside of Fictionaut (even writing students, teenagers studying craft-of-writing) they lose trust in our system of excellence here immediately.

  There are ALWAYS exceptions. On that wall there will be at least one or two good stories, just like there will be on the main page, sometimes with zero favorites. But the low-favorited stories are never seen, never read. The stories on the wall, however, get hundreds of views. And are sent out in a newsletter.

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 27, 05:52pm

  Thanks Stephen Hastings-King. You are so sane and wise. I hope you are enjoying this day outside. I am going to the bakery. That is a promise.

• 
  Jim V

  May 27, 06:16pm

  I'd like to just make one point that perhaps some have not considered. While people who get no faves might feel slighted by the lack of consideration they get, I do not believe they are the ones harmed most by the present same-people-to-the-top dynamic of Fictionaut. (And no, I'm not bitter. I always do very well, the few times I participate.)

  I believe it's the people who make it to the top who suffer most.

  When stories that appeared in the New Yorker or in top literary zines get 2-10 faves, and small paragraphs that appeared in some obscure online journal or are unplublished get 20-30, clearly something is amiss. Either the authors of the much-faved are very much underselling their work-- or they are not as good as their Fictionaut fave numbers indicate.

  This leads to some people thinking their work is better than it really is. How surprised they must be when they take their act on the road, when being editor of an ezine doesn't help much, when giving interviews doesn't help much, when faving everything that crosses the wire doesn't help much, and you must compete with the James Robisons and Stephen Dobyns and Joyce Carol Oates of the world.

  Many don't even bother. Better to camp here and be one of the big fish in a small pond. To be where you can control whether or not you succeed, rather than leave it up to the whims of some faceless intern and editor at Prairie Schooner or River Styx or Black Warrior Review.

  When a system is broken like this, it hurts everyone, but the people it hurts most are those it compliments. As writers, we deal with a lot of indifference. We're used to that. It doesn't usually ruin a writer and, if it does, he wasn't much of a writer in the first place.

  Compliments, like insults, however, can be pure poison. False flattery is insidious. (Even if that flattery is given with the best of intentions.) It tells you, however subtly, that you don't need to improve. It tells you that you're ready for the bigtime. It tells you that you can spend all day on this forum, being mean as a snake, when you really should be reading more, writing more, and learning (and sometimes relearning) your craft. It tell you that if you get a rejection that editor is an isiot because 27 faves on Fictionaut can't be wrong.

  It also tells you that if you can get up to 30 faves, you've accomplished something. But what have you really achieved? Who cares? It's a nice feeling, I bet, but is it as nice as getting a story in the New Yorker? Or even getting a check?

  I'll be damned if it is.

  I see people putting up their poems/stories on the very day they appear in some journal, and I wonder why. I wonder how the magazine feels about this practice, which seems to steal their thunder, and I wonder what the author is thinking. But I think it might be this: the need for approval here is so great, so addictive, they simply cannot wait even a day before getting that fix again.

  If this is true for posting, it must also be true of writing. Who will write a 10,000 word novella when you know you're going to get 2 faves for it, but 27 faves for a paragraph-length piece. If the fave is what drives someone, and you know it sometimes does, epspecially those at the top who want to stay there, then Fictionaut has become the puppetmaster of his writing, telling a writer what to write, how to write, and even when to write it. It has even come to the point (mentioned above) where some people think they need Fictionaut to write at all.

  All of this is dangerous. I'm not surprised Meg has gotten some blowback over this, since as Bowling for Soup famously said high school never ends, but she's only scratched the surface of the problems with a site such as this. I have no doubt that it does a lot of good as well, and its merits are spoken of nonstop, but the dangers are there also. To scream at someone who's trying to point them out is stupid.

  When I was a new writer, I wanted to hear about everything that could make me better or hurt me as a writer. I didn't have a built-in audience like Fictionaut. I had to earn one.

  I didn't know how lucky I was.

• 
  Doug Bond

  May 27, 06:17pm

  As with all public discussions, it is best to stay close to the trunk of the argument and try not to dwell in the twigs.

  There's much that's been aired here, but the primary concern seems to be about "the fave" Has it become devalued? It is the primary currency of the site and even the most apologetic analysis makes a strong case that a fave has become essentially meaningless. (Bob, the Horse was terrifically live theater of the absurd toward this end.)

  Editor's Eye was one site evolution idea to help counter the trend...it brings anonymity, detachment (from the community,) and diversity of opinion. (You know what happens to gene pools that lose diversity...mutation)

  Yes we're tribal, yes Quid Pro Quo comes naturally, we are after all relational beings and what is it...the mantra of trader's in the pits?...."don't fight the tape."

  If we are all invested in the overall site's reputation as a destination worthy of our and more broadly, other's time, what can be done to safeguard this capital...what's the hedge against the kind of self-dealing trade that fattens the wallet but brings down the whole house.

  I don't know...perhaps, no one does, singly. But I know the exec. committee (to the extent there is one) has this issue in its sites, as now do all of us, or at least those that have been reading here. And nothing ever gets solved completely in top down fashion...there's got to be a collective consensus towards furthering the community's best interests and not just one's own.

  I've always been intrigued that at any given time, the best story on Fictionaut is probably one you haven't yet read....or, (perhaps even more to the point in terms of how hopefully the site might evolve) the story that's lighting up a F'Naut member's screen that he or she feels too insecure to post.

• 
  Mark Reep

  May 27, 06:38pm

  Dang. I go out for ten minutes and you kids tear up the house.

  Much of this seems (to me, for whatever my take is worth) entirely valid. But some of the exchanges leave me sad.

  Jim, here's my take on this: 'When stories that appeared in the New Yorker or in top literary zines get 2-10 faves, and small paragraphs that appeared in some obscure online journal or are unplublished get 20-30, clearly something is amiss...'

  Underselling aside, whether we're editing the New Yorker, or asking for subs to the newest Wordpress-hosted listing on duotrope, it's all subjective. All we have is our own viewpoint. And simply because something's been published in a well known publication doesn't make it good. Just means that editor liked it. Which is fine, and how it should work. But again- all subjective.

  Agreed, and big, on your point about posting work that's newly published elsewhere. Seems disrespectful at best to those editors and publishers who've been willing to present ours.

• 
  Jo Deurbrouck

  May 27, 06:46pm

  Wow. I'm sorry for the bent feelings of some here, but wow. I loved some of the stuff I read from Doug, from James, from Meg, David, well hell....from nearly everyone who weighed in. Writer folk do tend to see what they look at.

  My two cents: I love the fave system. I love it despite what James, accurately, I think, says about its harms. And maybe I feel that way because I'm not one of those so harmed. : ) But I love it ONLY if it's ONLY one of the ways work gets pulled into the light. So yah, editor's pick, recently posted, favebot...and what if we had one or two more ways to pull work out and put it 'on the front page'?

  And a final penny: it really would be cool to have a mechanism to pull ONE longer piece out to the front on a regular basis. It really is true that Fictionaut has mostly crystallized around flash.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  May 27, 06:52pm

  Thank you Meg for calling me 'Legendary'. I will accept that as an honor. Perhaps if you also felt inwardly 'legendary' you wouldn't have started this whole absurd posting. But you have managed to upset a great number of people who are talking about extricating themselves from F'naut.

  I'm not one of them because being 'legendary' I am used to taking a lot of crap on the forum. So I'll just do what I always do here. Read what I want to read, respond accordingly, and give more writers exposure to their work through my Monday Chat Interview Series. Many of the stories chosen to chat, btw, are low in faves.

  I remember exactly how the Monday Chat got born. I was going to interview you, Meg, on your Fives column, to give you some publicity for your book Damn Sure Right. You and I had discussed it. But Jurgen decided it was too close in time to the period when your book with Jack Swenson was interviewed on the Fives.

  So I came up with the idea of the Monday Chat, and we did your interview there after what Jurgen felt was a suitable lapse in time.

  I find it ironic that you thought I would be the one to jump you on this posting. I almost didn't bother. But too many writers that I respect are upset about the way you portrayed things here.

  As for my personal irony to all of this: No good deed goes unpunished.

• 
  Jim V

  May 27, 06:52pm

  "Underselling aside, whether we're editing the New Yorker, or asking for subs to the newest Wordpress-hosted listing on duotrope, it's all subjective. All we have is our own viewpoint. And simply because something's been published in a well known publication doesn't make it good. Just means that editor liked it. Which is fine, and how it should work. But again- all subjective."

  There's some truth to this, Mark, and yet when the editor of the New Yorker is paying at least a buck a word, you gotta think he spends a bit more time being selective than someone clicking a fav button that costs him nothing.

  His opinion is not necessarily better, but it is more selective. It has to be. And let's face it, most of the work that passes through Fictionaut is not going to land in *any* elite journal, though there are many. That's not because opinions differ. It's because the quality is not there.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  May 27, 07:01pm

  Per Meg Pokrass above post: "On that wall: Every week are the same people. I won't list them here but we know the names in our sleep. They have become local celebrities in this community, and of course they are upset by this. It is their turf."

  Have I fallen into an alternate universe?

  The 2 years or so that I've been here, Meg Pokrass spent most of her time up on that wall. She told us in this post she got there by trading faves. What gives Meg???????????????????

  Or is it just about perpetuating this 'spin' so you don't feel forgotten?

• 
  Susan Tepper

  May 27, 07:04pm

  These are my last 'Legendary' words on this totally idiotic thread. You may love me or hate me or be indifferent to what I've said. It won't change my life.

• 
  David James

  May 27, 07:05pm

  Question for Mr. Fauth: Can we fav in the Forum?

• 
  Dolemite

  May 27, 07:06pm

  "Compliments, like insults, however, can be pure poison."

  Absolutely, and for the reasons James V gives (makes the young writer think they are done, having got that "Yes." and that, by extension, their work is finished.

  WHen I was starting out I wrote poem-like-thing after poem-like-thing after poem-like thing... TUrns out, some of them were, in fact, poems, but most were not. BUT if someone had seen then and said NO!, it would have altered (not stopped) the organic progression to the ones that *did* count. And if someone had said YES!, that, too would have altered the natural (ongoing) progression

  I also think it's a shame that people can't labor in obscurity anymore, which leads to a Rush to Publish/Interview! (good writers are published/interviewed. Therefore, having published, having been interviewed... Ta Da!)

  As for the New Yorker stories not getting that much attention... NYer stories are of a certain kind, and not everyone likes that kind of story...

  James, you mention that it's confusing why someone would post a piece that is currently live online (which I did...).

  Being new to online publishing (t *does* go to print later this summer) I was under the impression it was a good thing! That it would, in fact, lead people to the site (hence the live link). A little advertising for the mag, etc.

• 
  Sam Rasnake

  May 27, 07:19pm

  Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I plan to continue editing Blue Fifth the best way I know how – plan to read works of others in magazines, collections, books, anthologies – print and online – I'll read works posted here at FN and elsewhere. I will write.

• 
  Jim V

  May 27, 07:26pm

  "James, you mention that it's confusing why someone would post a piece that is currently live online (which I did...).

  Being new to online publishing (t *does* go to print later this summer) I was under the impression it was a good thing! That it would, in fact, lead people to the site (hence the live link). A little advertising for the mag, etc."

  Well, you're surely not the only person I've seen do this. Not even close. So don't think you are, Matt.

  I don't know. I can't speak for all editors, but I would think that putting their material elsewhere steals their thunder. This is why places say they want to be the first to publish (make public) something. And they usually mean by more than an hour.

  A link to the place is definitely desired-- from Facebook or somewhere. But the whole poem/story? Why bother heading to the journal?

  I think a reasonable period of time between original publication and posting here is polite. Usually after the next issue comes out. At which time, once it's in the archives, a little extra attention would probably make an editor smile.

  Again, though, I'm just making guesses. I'm no editor. I don't even give interviews. This puts me at a real disadvantage. I can't make people feel guilty for disagreeing with me.

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 27, 07:28pm

  I love Sam. He is why we are going to be okay.

• 
  Dolemite

  May 27, 07:34pm

  Thanks, James. I don't do facebook, so didn't have any other place to link to the magazine (I took it down).

• 
  Ann Bogle

  May 27, 08:13pm

  I favor keeping the favorite. Conversations such as this one highlight what seems privately true to all of us that it is not a perfect "system" to fave the stories, yet, to me, that is the beauty of it and of Fictionaut itself, that it is not a system but a social experiment in creative writing on the web. Creative Writing since the 50s has evolved as "programs." Here, people have a voice, both in the forum and in their interpretations of craft and delivery in creative work. We are adapting, some more naturally than others, to an Internet that favors shortest forms. Fortunately, Fictionaut is also a place to preview or reprint poetry and essays, long stories and chapters.

  The level of commentary (on the stories themselves) could be higher and more honest and more complex. I would like to see a quick way, similar to the "like" button on Facebook, to register appreciation for the most insightful comments. The like button on FB helps to avoid too much thanking (for small favors) and gratitude that I see as sometimes dominating the atmosphere both here and on other Internet forums.

  I do not note it publicly when writers/poets tell me they are taking a step back from Fictionaut, but it happens when the heat rises or when aesthetic diversity seems threatened. I do not note it when writers "too good for Fictionaut" -- who feel above it -- turn down an invitation to join or stay.

• 
  Ann Bogle

  May 27, 08:23pm

  Meg Pokrass seems to have a list of writers "too good for Fictionaut," and Susan Tepper has a list of writers who threaten to leave when the heat rises. Meg's mentioning it seems related to her concern that the LEVEL at Fictionaut could be higher (and I agree). That is within our hands -- those who do part of our work here -- and can be facilitated by the flexible structure (design) already in place. Susan's mentioning it seems related to feelings.

• 
  Jo Deurbrouck

  May 27, 08:56pm

  Hey so...several people, including Ann immediately above, have suggested that the fave or something favelike is good but that the fave itself could be more nuanced. Maybe it's lack of nuance that leads to the whole reciprocity game, for better and worse. What if, instead of faves, we had something more like the 5 star system used by so many media sorting groups, from Goodreads through Netflix. Not sure what it would do but as Ann says, this is an experiment. : )

  For me, deciding to click 'fave' is hard because...how many favorites can I have? It'd be a fun thought exercise to decide, instead, whether to click 3 stars or 4 or --WOW--5.

  And then, instead of tallying sheer numbers of clicks, the system would crunch up numbers of higher and lower 'scores.' Not sure how that would shake out, but it'd be interesting to see.

• 
  Jim V

  May 27, 09:09pm

  For the record, I'm not for changing Fictionaut at all. I don't think it will help and may in fact hurt. The problem isn't the venue, but human nature, which tends to break off into groups, which tends to go along with the flow, which tends to suffer from cronyism. The site is broken because *we* are broken. And we're not about to become less broken.

  Maybe for some brief time, while this thread is still in people's minds, an effort will be made to read people who are not friends or Fictionaut famous. But inevitably we all get busy and then we fall back into the old habits.

  Within a month, the same people who are always at the top will be back at the top. For my own part, I know it's very hard for me not to fave a Bill Yarrow poem. I like his work, like him, and my mouse just naturally gravitates toward the star.

  The issue, here, I think, is awareness. The people at the top are not bad people. They haven't cheated or done anything wrong, but the simple fact is the number of faves is a poor indicator at this point as to what is quality and what is not. Just like wealth is often a poor indicator as to who is a quality person. Seems silly to me to rip the wealth-disparity of the 1% in the larger society and then brag about the innate worthiness of the 1% here at Fictionaut. Sadly, very few things are a strict meritocracy.

  If we go forward realizing this, a lot of the potential dangers will be averted. If, however, we deny it, if we claim that quality alone is always what makes a piece here successful, then we've fallen into a trap.

  Remember: a site like this is a tool to help you get to a destination.

  It's not the destination.

• 
  Ann Bogle

  May 27, 09:28pm

  I started tutoring through a tutoring referral website -- first paid work in ages, and at first I was thrilled to tutor someone preparing to take the GRE. His mother had arranged the sessions and paid for them. The hourly rate for my services is rather high because the agency takes 40% off the top. The mother (her son was 22 or so and a senior in college -- a man not a boy) handled his affairs and rated our first session, though she hadn't been there or met me, as a "2" out of "5" stars. So far, it's the only rating I have gotten at that website, and it sank me. No one else has hired me there, though I keep bidding on assignments. There might be a tendency with a 5-star system ALWAYS to give a 5 and our troubles would escalate. A 4 might be considered deficient, etc. The fave is a measure of liking something following certain preferences, observations, and decisions. It is not a judge's score.

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 27, 09:35pm

  Ann- my comment about good writers leaving wasn't to say they are too good for Fictionaut. At all.

  It is to say they don't trust that their work will be read fairly here - and they won't put their work out there to have it ignored, it makes no sense to them...

• 
  Ann Bogle

  May 27, 09:49pm

  Oh, oh, oh, Meg. I thought you meant that they looked at the top-scoring stories and felt that their own work was too good for the site, that the site was mediocre or Internet-happy in some way, making it too easy for average writers to believe they had talent. The people who turned down my invitations to join were avant gardists who may have felt too advanced or elite to join.

• 
  David James

  May 27, 09:59pm

  I think it's time to turn out the lights and close the door on this tired thread.

• 
  Robert Vaughan

  May 27, 10:06pm

  In the words of our dear departed Donna: "Turn Down the Lights, sweet darlin, cause tonight it's all the way..."

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 27, 10:48pm

  hey, nice to see you Robert!

  Ann - Yeah, I know what you mean! That too.

• 
  RW Spryszak

  May 27, 11:27pm

  oh hai, what's going on in this thread?

• 
  Dolemite

  May 27, 11:51pm

  Prison riot.

  Over-crowding, unsafe conditions, mattress burnings, idol smashings, note-passings...

• 
  MichaelDickes

  May 28, 12:02am

  I was going to point out the interesting aspects of my new ayurvedic diet, but jumpin' jimmy on a jackhammer, Dennison's got a fine idea...let's knock some shit over and...oh wait...look...there's another bunny!!!

• 
  Dolemite

  May 28, 12:18am

  mother rapers, father rapers, bunny ra...

  ;-)

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 28, 12:41am

  An hour ago, I ate some little jelly energy things made of brown rice syrup called SHARKIES (before my walk) and then...er... thought about it.

• 
  MichaelDickes

  May 28, 12:44am

  ...gue right?

  Stewed Rabbit Rague Directions

  Season the rabbit on all sides with Essence, then lightly dust with the flour, shaking to remove any excess. In a large Dutch oven or pot, heat the oil over medium-high heat. Add the rabbit and cook until brown on all sides. Transfer to a plate.

• 
  Sally Houtman

  May 28, 02:14am

  Y'all are gettin' rowdy up in he-ah! I just pulled this off the Reuters feed:
  ********************

  ****FAVES FOR FAVORS SCANDAL SPARKS LITERARY UPRISING *******

  The Memorial weekend riot, at the Fictionaut Institute for People Who Write, about 10 yards east of here and midway to there, was reported to break down along genre lines, with poet gangs fighting flash fiction gangs in pen-to-pen combat, authorities said.
  
  No readers were injured, officials said. But 7 of the 8 Recommended Stories were put on lockdown to prevent unrest from spreading, while “Bob, my Horse” is reported to have escaped and remains at large. Those stories on lock-down were reported to have an average of 12 faves.
  
  Damage to the site’s online reputation was “significant and extensive,” a spokesperson said. One comment box was virtually destroyed by unwanted criticism. Other comment areas were so badly damaged that they were uninhabitable, authorities said, so some comments were temporarily housed in tents while others were sent to alternate websites.
  
  “The poets were the worst affected,” one eyewitness said. “locking themselves in isolation where they are undergoing extended bouts of painful self-reflection. Rhyming poets turned on their own kind, causing serious injury. All are currently in the Burns unit undergoing reconstruction.

  “All genres had injuries,” a spokesperson said of the weekend riot. “But there are a greater number of injuries among essays and long prose. Writers of long prose were taken into protective custody, and were heard to chant, “Why doesn’t anyone read myyyyyyy work!” as they were escorted away.

  Fictionaut officials said they were still questioning writers to understand what set off the uprising. They said no demands or complaints had been directed at the 'popular kids'.
  
  As writers tired on Sunday and fighting died down, officials re-entered the website and reasserted control.

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 28, 02:27am

  I love Sally!!!!

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 28, 02:30am

  It started as a note about tasting lots of food here, and not always ordering the Lemon Chicken.

• 
  Gessy Alvarez

  May 28, 02:34am

  Never understood lemon chicken. But, I love me some Sally Houtman.

• 
  MichaelDickes

  May 28, 02:47am

  Does Sally contain dairy? _are.

  H

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 28, 02:47am

  i don't really eat lemon chicken.

• 
  Gessy Alvarez

  May 28, 02:57am

  A little Sally is good for the soul.

• 
  Sally Houtman

  May 28, 03:04am

  Hey, stop talkin' 'bout me like I'm on the menu! It's creepin' me out!

• 
  Gessy Alvarez

  May 28, 03:10am

  Sorry, but you are delicious...sorry, I'm a little drunk and really hungry.

• 
  Matthew Robinson

  May 28, 03:25am

  Sally, that was the greatest thing I've ever read.

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 28, 03:31am

  Sally oh my god! That really was the best thing here, on this site. maybe ever.

• 
  MichaelDickes

  May 28, 05:43am

  9 out 10 doctors agree.

• 
  Chris Galvin

  May 28, 05:13pm

  Just goes to show, a little uprising every now and then is good for the creativity. Forget the Lemon Chicken--pass me the Poulet Yassa with a side of Jollof Rice.

• 
  James Lloyd Davis

  May 29, 08:37am

  'Uprisings' are not always good. They tend to be cruel and exclusionary. This one seems to have acheived its goal.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  May 29, 01:22pm

  JLD, you are correct. This is about one person (Meg Pokrass) whining and finger pointing simply because she wasn't getting faved enough anymore (in her opinion). Sadly, her narcissim has resulted in some very strong writers stating they will no longer participate in Fictionaut.

• 
  James Lloyd Davis

  May 29, 03:23pm

  Susan, my point may have been too vague.

  It was an expression of disappointment, primarily. Let me clarify here that it was made in order to express that disappointment... and to address the effect of this thread as I see it. I believe that cliques and factionalism destroy communities. They create an atmosphere of resentment and distrust and add nothing to what this place is supposed to be about... a welcoming, creative atmosphere in which art, not personality, is the center of focus.

  I would sooner leave this community than suffer the use of my name in a personal attack on anyone.

• 
  James Claffey

  May 29, 04:24pm

  good lord, how poisoned the whole thread has become. i think the rule should be that you can't invoke other writer's names without their express consent. i don't want to be brought into the fray and have my avocados tarnished.

• 
  Meg Pokrass

  May 29, 04:38pm

  are they Haas?

• 
  Jürgen Fauth

  May 29, 06:13pm

  Seems this threat has run its course, and I'm going to lock it after this. Thanks for all your comments. I felt that there was an interesting & useful discussion to be had about the role of favorites on Fictionaut as it has developed over time -- and I think that discussion is somewhere in here, between some hurt feelings and at least one absolutely hilarious post (Sally!)

  As you may know, there are many minor tweaks and larger changes that Carson and I would like to make to the site, including some that would address the perceived problems with the favoriting system. As it stands now, I'd argue that it works reasonably well, but there's certainly room for improvement and fine-tuning. The algorithm itself could be improved, we could implement hard-coded rules like a limited amount of faves over a period of time, we could give stories which "need faves" their own page, and more. I very much like the idea of faving comments, which would do away with the need to keep thanking commenters. But development for a website such as this one, which is custom-built from the ground up, is hard to come by -- even if one of the founders is a developer.

  So until we can work on technical improvements, I hope that we can keep the site working as it is, with all the flaws and complications (and yes, occasional hurt feelings) that a system like the faves brings with it. If it's true that recognized names and more involved members of the community have an easier time rising on the recommended list, then I'd submit that surely, the same has always been true in publishing -- it may just be somewhat more transparent here. But at least, on Fictionaut everyone gets a chance to get read and to respond. And of course, it's entirely up to each writer how seriously they take that little star, whether they're on the awarding or the receiving end.

  Fictionaut is home to more than 11,000 stories now, and one of the challenges is to slice that outrageous number in new and interesting ways so worthwhile stories don't get lost. The recommends list, with all its flaws, is only one such way. From the start, we've been looking for other opportunities to point readers to the many, many great stories & poems the site has to offer. That's where several of our blog series came from: Fictionaut Faves, Fictionaut Selects, Fictionaut Recommends, and, most recently, Editor's Eye. The new Fictionaut Prize is yet another way in which we're trying to point readers to work that may have fallen through the cracks of the automated system. We'll have an official announcement about the prize soon.

  I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank all of you for your ideas, your constructive comments, and for your generous sharing, reading, and commenting. It's you who keep this place going.

  Finally, a link to JP Reese's excellent "A Welcome and a Primer" post -- I'm looking for a way to give her tips a more permanent home on the site: http://www.fictionaut.com/forums/general/threads/1904

• This thread was locked on 2012-05-29 18:13:46 UTC.

  JF.