Forum / Let's try again...

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 01, 06:11pm

Either join the Facebook page and get in on the conversaion at:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/562814007195304/

Or... post in these threads, ideas and commitment to making Fictionaut better and permanent, viable and vital. Talk is not enough. It will take people who are willing to assume active roles in both defining and rebuilding what I believe is a valuable resource for writers online.

Samuel Derrick Rosen
Mar 02, 12:57am

I call Facebook Arsebook and Twitter Twatter.

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 02, 02:42am

How damned clever.

Carol Reid
Mar 02, 04:02pm

James, I've tried to compose a response a bunch of times and all my ideas sound naive and low-tech, which they are.

At this point all I can offer is the hope that someone in your group has connections to people with the skills to make this site able to generate money for its operating costs.

I think we still have a community here.

David Ackley
Mar 02, 04:02pm

Please get in on the action on Facebook for your chance to give back to Fictionaut.

Nonnie Augustine
Mar 04, 06:52pm

I'm thinking about all this James, but I have to think some more.

Mathew Paust
Mar 04, 09:47pm

Perhaps people would feel freer to discuss this informally if we...nah. I withdraw the question.

But I would hate to lose the site. Whatever it takes to keep it viable should be put on the table for civil discussion.

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 05, 03:22am

Just put this up on Facebook Fictionaut Booster's page. I'll put it up here for anyone who's interested. Some of my own ideas and a lot of other people's ideas all in one place:

Been thinking about this for a while and let me offer the following:

1. Make a plan. Alert the membership as to the intent for rebuilding the site. Seek input and ask for voluntary help in the necessary functions both immediate needs and ongoing needs when the site is fully operational.
2. Because development is expensive and the site obviously needs some development, a fund raising effort for that purpose alone should be a priority... seek volunteers and have them oversee an effort that includes a grant search, crowdfunding, approaching the current membership for donations and every interested party.
3. A universal annual membership fee of at least $60 with a monthly payment or $50 in a lump sum.
4. A monthly publication, something along the lines of "The Best of Fictionaut" with a subscription offered to anyone willing to pay a premium annual membership of $75. Only premium membership can be considered for inclusion therein
5. Book publishing - anyone willing to take this on could conceivably develop a package for the membership that offers an attractive portal to self publishing chapbooks and collections of flash, short stories, even novellas. Perhaps a partnership with an existing, reputable organization. This same outlet could provide an annual collection of the best work from Fictionaut in e-form and print.
6. There have been many authors with the name recognition it takes to help launch the effort. Maybe it would be a good idea to solicit these and get a few on board who are willing to promote it.
7. Revamp the rules to discourage cliques and trolls which have always been a problem on Fn, while encouraging some sort of daily input from the membership at large.
8. Continue with the advertising and seek partnerships with other organizations to both boost the membership with members who have a vested interest and to be able to offer services to the membership as part of their premium... this is probably the most interesting possibility for future growth, when other internet services that cater to writers begin to see the advantage of open access to the people they are looking for.

This kind of effort requires a business plan and an organized team in constant communication. People willing to give it a specific amount of time per week. My suggestion would be to contact your existing board and see who is willing and who is not, then fill in the vacancies with new and interested people. But what is their motivation? One would be free membership, but that's not much considering the amount of work that needs to be done.. there should be more incentive. What would that be? I'd like to hear what other people might be thinking in that regard.

Add my name to the list of people willing to get involved, but we need at least a dozen people with the necessary abilities, I think. The project needs momentum. It won't get off the ground without it.

Mathew Paust
Mar 05, 04:56pm

Appreciate the thought you've put into this, JLD. I'm certainly willing to pay an annual fee, and I also especially like Nr. 6. A couple of well-known authors on board would be a magnet for positive growth, and likely help attract sponsors and other revenue sources.

Ann Bogle
Mar 06, 04:39pm

Regarding financing the site with memberships: On Facebook, where this discussion has been taking place, there is a different numbering system I think first offered by Jürgen. Rather than confuse two numbered lists, I'll just address fee structure as a topic here without referring to it by number.

The Writers' Union whose functions I attended in Minneapolis when a chapter was active here charged dues based on one's levels of publication. I think I had by then published five print stories or something like that, and my dues would have amounted to $126 a year. That might have enabled me to access group-rate health insurance except that in my case due to disability, there may have been no way to combine union-based insurance with Medicare and no way to opt out of Medicare. I am sharing this because the Union operated as an organization (affiliated with the Auto Workers) and it served a working membership of mainly freelancers. I attended events freely without joining. I was really unable to afford dues then.

About subscriptions, here is another example. I have never left AOL since starting in 1996. There has been talk of victimized members of the public who are unaware that they do not have to subscribe to AOL to access free email accounts. I subscribe for the reason that it provides limited dial-up service (as emergency back-up) and other features, such as an AARP membership, for $6.99 a month. This is going up to $9.99 this year, no discussion. Full subscription rates to AOL go to about $25+ a month.

When I think of what something is worth to me and when I think of how much I pay to eat as I most wish to eat (scandalous costs, higher than a man might expect to pay to dine out with a date nightly), I think, what can I pay now? What do I want to pay? What will I be able to pay later (when I have no way to do it)? Am I as a member sufficient in any livelihood (no), and is writing my non-professional hobby, my avocation—I know it gets more serious than that in a way that can be deleterious—and how much does one pay for a hobby? I suppose it could be any amount. What about paying in time? Is paying in time affordable? What is the price of an hour of a hobbyist's time?

I remember the first time someone asked me if writing were my hobby or if I was paid for it. He asked because he wanted to move in together, but he didn't know if I had an income. I felt that I had swallowed an entire small fish skeleton and all its bones got stuck along the inside of my throat. My fear and chagrin (and loss of that relationship due to no financing) was due to having moved across the country about four times on a shoestring budget at the summons of creative writing programs and ending up in Chapter 7. So, my hobbies include reading to comment and writing to be read. As someone else said it about me: It is a passion. So how much is a right fee for each passion?

~AMB

(542 words)

Chris Okum
Mar 06, 04:58pm

Wow. I'm going to pay so that I can continue to post the reams of reams of content I've been putting on this site for almost six years? No thank you. There are plenty of 21rst century digital quirks I'm willing to put up with, but that's not one of them. I know my writing is worthless, but I'm not ready to accept that it is less than worthless, that it is so beyond worthless that I have to pony up money for the right to see it published. Fuck that noise. I have gotten paid a total of $100 dollars in the last seven years for all the work I've had published at lit sites and magazines and journals, and while I'm fine with that - because I obviously don't write for the money - I'm not fine with providing content on my own dime. If the absentee landlords who run this place can't afford to keep the lights on anymore then it's time to close shop.

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 06, 05:07pm

If you don't care? You don't care. That's okay, too. Thank you for taking the time to say so.

Jürgen Fauth
Mar 06, 05:21pm

I absolutely understand where Chris is coming from. If we were to move to a paid model, it would have to be worth it for writers. I'd want to always keep a free option — you shouldn't *have* to pay to post — but rather, paying for the premium service should give you additional goodies that make it worthwhile (unlimited posting, no ads, extra publicity, guaranteed quality feedback, extra invites, a groovy t-shirt). Problem is, those goodies have to be provided and/or programmed — which we can't do without a bunch of money, and that's where the Ouroboros bites itself in the ass.

I appreciate the thought everybody's been putting into this. Believe me, Carson and I have gone over our options again and again. It's possible that with a number of motivated people, we might could change things around here — but honestly, I'm not sure where & how to start.

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 06, 06:56pm

It is impossible to know what to do when the majority of people here won't give you a hint of what they think. I understand where Chris is coming from and I'm thankful he chose to express an opinion. Maybe his opinion is the majority. "It's nice that it's here, but I'm not willing to get involved or pay a fee and I won't miss it when it's gone."

I would pay, but I doubt at this point whether or not there is a will among the membership to do anything. Without that will, there's no point going forward.

Nonnie Augustine
Mar 06, 07:41pm

I care. I care about Fictionaut and I've been reading and thinking and wondering if I have anything useful to contribute. There is a marvelous community of writers here and I hope the site continues and that the funding issues can be resolved. I would like to post more new work here, but hesitate because of the whole "previously published" or "unpublished" question. I've asked writers about this and they've said that they mainly post work on the site that has already been published. Feedback is more useful, though, early on in a poem or story's life, so to speak. I use the list of "Fictionaut Friendly" lit mags and this recently resulted in an acceptance by one of them. I'm not a Luddite, but I'm certainly close to being one, so I won't offer my services for technical help. I'm a reader and a writer and those are my skills. I'm not rich but I value the site enough to pay a lump sum every year to be part of it. Er...you know, a sensible lump sum.

Chris Okum
Mar 06, 07:45pm

Pardon my salty language and juvenile tone. That's not how I wanted to come across, even though that's how I did. I get shrill and self-righteous whenever this topic comes up because it reminds me - for some reason - that being a professional writer is - in the 21st century - some kind of pipe dream. When I was a kid I wanted to be play in the NBA, and when I realized, at around age 12, that that wasn't going to happen, I shifted gears, thinking maybe I would make a living in the arts. I had no idea that accomplishing this would be as hard as it is. Whatever. Now self-pity is rearing its ugly head. I'm going back to doing some work.

Jane Flett
Mar 06, 10:24pm

Hey, I don't know how much I can offer in terms of dedicated time and money to this site at the moment, but I do think it’s great that people are getting involved to make this happen. I was hesitant to post this at first, since all I have to offer right now is talk, but this is my feedback:

• 7. Revamp the rules to discourage cliques and trolls which have always been a problem on Fn.

Yes x 1000. I would love there to be some kind of accountability process, like a "report user" button with a process behind it, so when people are being dicks they can be told to stop being dicks.

To be honest, I wouldn’t pay to join the site at the moment, partly because of this reason (partly because I’m also pretty skint).

My agent found me through this site and I've had work discovered and re-published from here for journals that pay pro-rates and I think having a writing community is extremely important (so I kind of love Fictionaut), but I've also had arguments about why rape jokes are (not) actually really funny and been told by dudes that, hurr hurr, I'll be back to join *this* conversation because I want their phone number. Which is just...ew.

I know: I don’t have to get involved in these conversations. But also, I think if Fictionaut wants to take itself seriously as a writing community, these are the kind of things that drive away good people.

I run creative writing courses as my job and also host day-long workshops about how to start getting published in lit journals. I talk to my students about Fictionaut sometimes, and what it has done for me, but also feel I have to put provisos on it: yep, sometimes the forums can degenerate into misogynist bullshit. Yeah, there’s a lot of in-jokes. Sometimes, there’s this weird thing where users change their name every day. No, I don’t know why either.

I would love to be able to tell people: yes, this is a thing that is totally worth investing in for your writing career. I do that with Duotrope, and believe it. But even as a free site, I have qualms about recommending it in any professional capacity, for these reasons.

Plus, when I tried to send out the two invites I had to students who I thought could benefit from the site...they didn’t work for about six months.

I realise these are not suggestions that actually help with the funding side of things, and that it is difficult to manage them, and part of it is what you get from having a community on the internet and comment spaces in general.

But also, I think if the site wants to relaunch as a paid, professional site, it’s something that has to be addressed in some respect.

I'd also like to say a massive thanks to Jürgen and Carson for all the years of work they've put in — probably pretty-fucking-unpaid work, or? — to make this space exist. Sure, it doesn't always work the way it should, but also none of us are owed this. I've worked many years in volunteer organisations making art spaces that people were very good about explaining all the ways we were doing it wrong, but never willing to step up and help make it better. So, kudos to those here who are invested in making that happen.

Sally Houtman
Mar 06, 10:26pm

"It is impossible to know what to do when the majority of people here won't give you a hint of what they think."

Perhaps that is because what they think (but are unwilling to say publicly) is:

"For the love of God, what is the point?"

I think Chris' frustration is representative of more than a few folks, and this says it all:

"whenever this topic comes up:

because this issue has been raised (by myself and others) over and over and over and over and over, suggestions have been made over and over and over, offers of assistance, offers of donations (by myself and others), have been made over and over and over

and all have gone unheard.

So it's difficult to get enthusiastic over revisiting the same territory, knowing that all the great ideas will fizzle into nothingness.

And when I've pointed this out in the past, I've been cautioned (as I'm sure I will be again) about my 'negative attitude'.

I'd love to see things here be updated (as I've said over and over and over and over), because this is truly a valuable resource.

But the truth is, no one is going to pay to be a member of a broken site, where the formatting is nonexistent, folks have to struggle to post things properly, the invite and e-mail notifications never work, so new people can't get in...and so on and so on and so on....

And few people are going to be willing to say this publicly.

They will simply, quietly, leave out of frustration.

Yes, I'm being negative. But I trust I speak for more than myself.

And you did ask.

Jane Flett
Mar 06, 10:28pm

Also, I'm kind of aware that my first and last paragraphs are at odds...this was why I wasn't sure about posting, but JLD's comments made me reconsider.

Sally Houtman
Mar 06, 10:46pm

I've just seen Jane's post above (must have been writing at the same time).

Re Item #7 which she addressed above, could the powers that be ensure that, when defining 'clique' and writing the 'rules' thereabout they include those members who never read anyone's work, never post any of their work, yet appear instantly when one of their friends posts something to immediately comment on it, then disappear until their friends post again.

Thanks.

Carol Reid
Mar 06, 11:07pm

I've met good people, made good friends here who also happen to be good writers. That is very important to me.

While we wait for that first critical push to get the renovation ball rolling here, maybe we can reserve some energy for the stuff that makes Fnaut a good place to hang out. Read, comment, post.Or any of the above. We might enjoy ourselves so much that a solution of sorts might come out of all that enjoyment.

I know I'm fortunate to not care all that much about the broken parts of the site, but I totally get why it's a royal pain for others. I'm not even frustrated by the inability to invite people anymore.

If I get a brainstorm, I will certainly share it. If a plan is set into motion, I will help.

Rachna K.
Mar 07, 12:10am

I am with Sally and Chris O. (Actually, the earlier post of Chris O. and especially the second post of Sally).

And Sally, it is fine to be negative, especially after the tremendous amount of effort you've put into constructive crit/feedback/help for new writers like me. It is priceless.

And if this site stays in its current state, I'd like to keep posting stuff without paying.

Charlotte Hamrick
Mar 07, 12:41am

I don't care to pay to have access to this site, either, which is in keeping with my practice of not entering contests or submitting to journals that charge a fee.

I used to be more vocal about the issues with this site because I was frankly astounded by them. I didn't realize how difficult it would be to fix. Nowadays, I've become used to it and I don't let it bother me but I can't imagine new people would want to join a site that can't provide a basic service like email notification.

I think JLD's #7 is great in theory but can't imagine how it might be enforced. I simply cannot commit to interact here (or anywhere) on a daily basis, as much as I'd like to.

Trolls and in-fighting: the Internet will never be rid of them.
Cliques will always be with us.
Friends will always stick together even when one of their own is just as wrong as the outsider they condemn.
^^^^^^^^^^^
The trick is to learn how to ignore it all.

I just want to read, write, and interact with the friends I've made here.

Mathew Paust
Mar 07, 12:45am

I was surprised---no, astounded--to read on the FB page that Jürgen and Carson have put more than 100k into Fictionaut (unless my glasses failed me). That, for me anyway, is a whole lotta shekels. In fact it leaves me feeling small for even thinking of something to complain about. Even tho I'd sure like to see an editing feature in comments.

As a refugee from Open Salon, which was virtually abandoned by Salon.com a couple of years ago I feel silly even mentioning my comment dream. I'm actually tickled pink with this place and frankly have no problem even with the trolls and occasional hissy fits. This place is a swank club compared with the biker bar atmosphere of the old Open Salon.

Charlotte Hamrick
Mar 07, 12:55am

100k? Oh, my. That does put a new perspective on things.

David Ackley
Mar 07, 02:23am

I don't enter fee-charging contests and don't pay to submit to magazines ( I'm talking about you NARRATIVE, with your outrageous tariff.)but I'd pay to support Fictionaut. Why? Because it's already done things for my writing that I could never repay, both in access to a caring responsive audience of peers and in opening the way to publication in some great journals. Not to speak of encouraging by its oppenness the trying of a lot that I might never have tried without it. A friend of mine pays a court fee so he can play tennis every week. That's how I'd look at Fictionaut, unlimited access to the court I like playing on. From what I hear there's nothing, with all it's little glitches, anywhere near close to it on the internet.

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 07, 03:15am

It's okay to complain. It's good to complain. Thank you for airing your gripes... it's the reason all this is being discussed, after all. The site needs to be fixed, controlled, monitored, and it must offer aspects to the writing life that no other site can or will do before anyone pays a fee. And I would not pay a dime for the way the site exists at the moment. But if that's what it takes to get things moving, I'll kick in what I can.

All I want to do is to get people together to make something happen. And it encourages me at least, to hear people admit that they have benefited in their writing because of Fn. So have I. And for that reason alone, it's worth the effort.

Keep up the conversation. I hate giving up on anything. Let's DO something, though. Let's do something right now to make people believe we're serious.

Ultimately? It's not my car. I don't have the keys. Somebody needs to take the first step and put those keys in the ignition.

Ann Bogle
Mar 07, 04:12am

√ David Ackley

√ Carol Reid

All views require respect.

Once I posted something I believed was innocuous about older-aged writers on the site, and that is when I became aware of Jane Flett as a forum writer. She barked that she was an older-aged writer and notified us that she had ZERO problem with my XYZ. I had expressed my XYZ (whatever it was) with a suitable mildness, suitable to older age.

Is J.F.'s barking what is = to be a troll and was I in a clique? It is J.F. who makes a living around this field, so she might be able to tell us what trolls and cliques are! I am not saddened by her requirements.

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 07, 04:01pm

When there is confusion about what is not considered good behavior online, someone is always willing to provide an example.

Mathew Paust
Mar 07, 05:04pm

David Ackley said pretty much what I was thinking about thinking.

Ann Bogle
Mar 08, 10:11pm

When there is no confusion, no example is provided, and the entire group is viewed as colluding in its continuance ... see above.

Ann Bogle
Mar 08, 10:25pm

Rule 9871042ZX54:

I would like the option to print my pages with comments included in a bound volume. Blogs are able to be printed and bound (hardcover and softcover) through several p.o.d. companies. I realize that I can use my printer and print my pages that way.

Gary Hardaway
Mar 09, 03:16am

If a fee is charged, 80% of the current membership will be gone. The paying 20% who remain will find a diminished response and won't renew. The site will stagger on, then vanish.

My fear is that my prediction is accurate and the best site I've found will be gone.

Ann Bogle
Mar 09, 03:39am

What about patronage? Sorry to ask such a routine question. Still, it seems that patronage or investors could excite the nerves of the website. Patronage and investors could include us. I am considering a trip, for example, and that means I _could_ go. Several of us can consider a trip. All of us can consider a trip to somewhere, yet we are reserving $$ for services and objects we do not expect to get without paying for it in cash or debt. What if when it comes to Fictionaut that _you_ owe? The founders have not called in their outlay to us, and there might be no one else to call in for it. The only plausible reason that you do not owe for these services is that your content has enriched the founders financially. Has it? If it could, by what means? And how could it begin to enrich you? We need to keep thinking. Maybe to privatize the website again and to charge admittance to readers is the way to go.

Nonnie Augustine
Mar 09, 04:58pm

I promise to click on the ads as often as I can. I don't even mind, because they are book ads. If we all clicked in astonishing numbers, would that help, I wonder?

Charlotte Hamrick
Mar 09, 05:44pm

It can't hurt, Nonnie. I'll do the same.

Another thought: open a Kickstarter fund for a specific donation goal for specific upgrades to the site. I'd give. And the contributors that use Fictionaut could spread the word via social media and their own blogs/websites so non-contributors who read us here could donate, as well.

Nonnie Augustine
Mar 09, 10:11pm

Carson just said on the FB page that we shouldn't click away. They are good at detecting "click fraud," and it could actually hurt the site. So, oops.

Mathew Paust
Mar 10, 05:55pm

Not stutter clicking, but what if we all clicked once each time we visited a page? Or once a day? Surely that wouldn't hurt. I imagine the clickmeister's computer tallies the clickers' ISPs to detect if any hanky pank is transpiring.

Nonnie Augustine
Mar 10, 10:38pm

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Sensible clicks, Matthew.

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 13, 08:12pm

Okay... now what?

Chris Okum
Mar 13, 09:43pm

This place is the digital equivalent of Detroit.

Sally Houtman
Mar 13, 10:11pm

James.....

You didn't REALLY think anything was going to happen, did you?

I mean.......REALLY?

Mathew Paust
Mar 14, 12:17am

Sally, it was just a test to see if we could hold a meme discussion without slip-sliding into incivility. Most of us passed.

Mathew Paust
Mar 14, 12:21am

Yay

Sally Houtman
Mar 14, 12:26am

Count the holes in my tongue.

Incivility is where I live.

:)

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 14, 01:16am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian-head_test_pattern#/media/File:RCA_Indian_Head_test_pattern.JPG

Sally Houtman
Mar 14, 01:29am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp0UYoIsc6E

Mathew Paust
Mar 14, 02:58am

Are we pushing the envelope?

Letitia Coyne
Mar 14, 04:16am

Just an opinion. A question.

I’ll paste this into Facebook too, and on my blog. Around the place a bit. Critical comments get shredded here, as we know.

*******Before I start, I offer again my Fictionaut account for anyone at all who is STILL waiting for invitations for friends to join. I’ll give you my sign in details. You change both username and password, then delete my profile, favourites and list of publications, replacing all that info with your own. If my account isn’t deleted today, it is all yours. Still no takers?********

Secondly, I hope this forum thread is not locked or deleted when JLD has tried so hard to get things moving. I apologize if the serious desire to get things done is thwarted. Trigger the Star Chamber, and BANG! Sorry.

But I have a different view of what is happening at Fictionaut for your consideration. I’ll begin with a short story.

I worked for an online magazine for three years. Anna and I worked every hour to get that thing from a hundred hits a day up to thousands; from one article a weekish to a full daily update with interviews and calendars and puzzles and reviews etc all for webfiction/serials. I think $35000/pa is fair for what I put in there off my own bat, but oddly enough we worked on that magazine because we enjoyed it and it paid off in other ways. [NO ads]

The little girl who actually coded the site was a 25 yr old Belgian archaeology student. Alone she managed to keep its emails running and its message banks and RSS feeds functioning, and twice she updated the whole look of the thing to accommodate the growing list of regular features.

So, just like Jürgen and Carson, I’ve put $100000 worth of effort into something I enjoyed doing, but I didn't ask anyone anywhere to pay me for it.

And the site worked ........ All of it ......... All the time.

How many non-profit orgs do you think run their own sites?

I wonder, just how expensive is it to keep your own site running? Perhaps you have to choose something other than Ruby on Rails if it alone costs several hundred thousand dollars per year to maintain. Pheeeeeee’ew that sounds a lot of money to me ...

OR -- is it possible that rather than say:

‘stop bugging us about the glitches. We give you this platform for free. Suck it up,’

did Jürgen [and I’ve heard nothing from Carson at all] actually say to themselves:

‘tell the whiners that until they’re ready to pay us what we’re worth, $100s of grand a year, they can cry into their pillows. We’re fixing squat! Muwahahahaha.’

That may sound harsh, but I remember a conversation with Jürgen and Marcus Speh some time back, where Jürgen remarked that he wished publishing was like a real tightrope walk. That way bad writers would fall to their deaths. Only best sellers would remain. [I’m not sure how KINO sales went]

And then --oh the horror—on top of the outside bad writers, Marcy opened the floodgates to the plebs and received 113 new members in one month, April 2013. A serious blow to the club ego. This site was for Glittering Literati only.

But at least the bullfrog mentality was puffed up by the sudden gain. 5000 members! 5000?

No. 200 contributing members. The rest went home. Their unused accounts remain because you have to go begging to have your account deleted. Fictionaut is an echo chamber, a ghost town, functioning on the good will and talent of a small group of superb and dedicated writers.
http://fictionaut.com/forums/general/threads/3325

Should I end on a positive? A solution?

Fix the email and message function for less than $100 000, and devise some simple formatting capabilities. It seems enormously simple to me, even if the site has to migrate to a simpler system.

IMHO.

Cheers
Lxx

Mathew Paust
Mar 14, 11:18am

Some scales have fallen from my eyes. Thanks, Letitia. I sure as hell hope you stay!

Steven Gowin
Mar 15, 03:39am

I'd be willing to pay a bit each year. I've read great stuff and made friends with other writers. I agree a free option with good features should always exist. At this point though, yes, I would pay something.

Gary Hardaway
Mar 15, 03:46am

Yes, Steve.

Adam Sifre
Mar 15, 07:47am

I like fictionaut as is. Trying to make it something more will probably fail. Go look at Authonomy as a cautionary tale.

Jürgen Fauth
Mar 16, 11:51am

Letitia:

There are "critical comments", and there's suggestive bullshit. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't ascribe ulterior motives to me and Carson or put words in our mouths, especially if they're vaguely remembered misinterpretations followed by a bunch of nonsense and personal attacks. The "tightrope" bit was, in fact, a famous Goethe quote on acting (“I wish the stage were as narrow as the wire of a tighrope dancer so that no incompetent would dare step upon it.”) — but without the context it's absolutely useless to bring up now. Clearly, if I'd believed it applied to publishing, I would've never bothered to start Fictionaut. Also, loaded phrases like "suck it up", "club ego", "bullfrog mentality" or "mwhuahaha" have no place in this discussion.

I don't know what to tell you if you think the solution to the problems the site is facing are "enormously simple". Apparently, you have some experience involving another website somewhere that led you to this conclusion — in spite of lengthy, detailed posts explaining the difference between a custom-built platform like Fictionaut and a simple web magazine/blog. If you prefer to believe that these difficulties are somehow the result of evil planning and greed on the part of Carson and me, I'm sure you'll be happier elsewhere.

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 16, 08:45pm

I'm done talking myself. Already done three times as much talking about this as I ever did about any other idea before actually doing something. Just remember I volunteered to help. As did a few others. It's not our web site, so there's nothing we can do until you let us.

Maybe you don't want to do anything. That's okay too. Your call.

Jürgen Fauth
Mar 16, 10:24pm

James, as I said on Facebook, I do appreciate your ideas and your willingness to help, but what's really required to fix anything around here is programming. So unless we have a Ruby on Rails programmer who can work on the site, or find the resources to pay for one, there's not a lot I can do, either. What this ultimately comes down to is money — but even setting up a premium service would take a bunch of programming. The only possible avenue I see at this point is asking for donations, which I'm not sure is a viable option either (and I'm not sure it's one I'm comfortable with, especially since we're already being accused of ulterior motives).

I know this isn't remotely satisfactory and it seems especially frustrating because of all the good ideas and possibilities floating around — but perhaps it does answer the initial question that started all this: "Why is Fictionaut still in beta?"

“There's no money in poetry, but there's no poetry in money, either.”
― Robert Graves

Joani Reese
Mar 16, 11:34pm

Why don't you come up with a close estimate of how much you'd have to pay a person with a diploma in computer science to fix those areas with which people are infuriated? You could start a Kickstarter, or just ask people committed to Fictionaut to chip in to pay some starving techie to fix what's broken. At least that issue could be put to bed. Pay for play is probably a non-starter, but the occasional funding to maintain the physical plant would probably go over fine. Find a computer person with time and whom you trust, and figure out how many hours what's broken will take to fix. Decide on a flat fee, and ask, just ask those folks who have hung in here to contribute. Some will, some won't, but I imagine you'd probably get it done. Going away again now. Good luck. I have benefitted from Fictionaut and owe you a debt of gratitude for that. Bye.

Brenda Bishop Blakey
Mar 17, 01:22am

Seems like everything comes down to money, doesn't it. Well, here are my thoughts which have also been posted over at facebook.

[I love the idea of Fictionaut being open and free and healthy. I am willing to make a donation of, say, $200. If only 199 additional people contribute $200. we will have $40,000. A righteous amount to cover about seven to eight months of a full-time programmer.

Or, 400 people could donate $100. Or, 800 people could donate $50. You get the general idea. There will be people who will want to contribute more, I'm sure. I say we get started with this. It's only money. This would be a gift and as such would not change a person's participation, status, rights and/or responsibilities. The net effect would be site maintenance, improvements, and further modifications due to potential growth.

Tell me where to mail the check.]

Ann Bogle
Mar 17, 07:15am

Is programming worth a salary and writing worth no salary? Why does a rush of eager thwartedeness follow into a space without a programmer? Are programmers in short supply? Are writers tadpoles in a culvert? I have started to learn binary code. I wish I had spent my life writing code instead of relocating dangling modifiers. I could earn $40K to help writers.

Brenda Bishop Blakey
Mar 17, 11:49am

I think Anne hit upon the crux of the matter. Everyone’s trade has a value whether writer or programmer. A person can choose to give away their services / products or a person can charge for same. Several members want changes / improvements made which will require a programmer. In the past this work was done by Carson and Jurgen. No Fictionaut members paid their salary. They essentially worked for free.

Are programmers and writers mere tadpoles in a culvert? Of course not. Do they not deserve to be paid for their efforts / results? Of course they do. When you become good enough at something you can be paid to do it. This is the working definition of ‘worth’.

Mathew Paust
Mar 17, 10:49pm

It's that damned "free-market" economy thwarting us again.

Veronica Purcell
Mar 18, 02:52am

Is Ruby on Rails programmer only required maintain the site? Do you also need the programmer to uplift.

What is Fictionaut's future vision or five year plan?
What do we want from Fictionaut as members and contributors; now and in the future?
How do we want to get there?

I'm happy to donate some money provided Fictionaut has a clear vision and roadmap toward a future.

Sally Houtman
Mar 22, 02:21am

Surely it can't require a Kickstarter campaign or fundraising effort to merely fix the invite function.

Which is, really, the only thing that truly matters. Everything else is window dressing and doesn't affect the functioning of the place.

Letitia described the place as an 'echo chamber'.

Which is exactly what it is.

Unless someone is willing to open the windows and get some air circulating through, the place will suffocate.

I see nothing here changing.

I'm going out for some fresh air.}

Good luck, all.

Mathew Paust
Mar 23, 10:23pm

Come back, Houtman! We're not finished stifling you yet...

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 28, 12:17am

I'm not going to try this again. It is what it is. Next time I get a burst of enthusiasm, I'll start something else, somewhere else. Thanks to those who expressed a desire to help.

eamon byrne
Apr 05, 08:16am

This is for Jurgen or Carson. I hope they read this and respond.

What I can't understand is why our texts can't be embedded in a simple html div.

A couple of years ago, when I first started posting, I always submitted my pieces like this:

<div style="some css here ..">my text ....</div>

(I hope that renders correctly.)

My pieces always came out exactly as I wished: my preferred font, my preferred line spacing, my preferred line width, full justification, etc.

However, this functionality at some point was removed from the site. After that I stopped posting, except sporadically.

It seems that the styling of my pieces was being over-ridden by a generic style in Carson's code. Possibly the Ruby code stripped out any DIV tags out of the input.

If so that should be a very simple thing to fix. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If Carson wishes to consult with me on a fix for this issue, I would be happy to oblige.

My suggestion is as follows: a simple example should be published as a help item on the site, showing authors how to submit their texts as raw ascii text but wrapped in a div with an id of "fictionaut". This would prevent Carson's script from filtering out of such a div.

The example should list the basic html tags for italics, bolded text, etc, and also the paragraph tags. These tags could be used in the example, which could have, say, 3 paragraphs.

Authors could still submit their pieces as they do now, but an html option as suggested here would solve the formatting issue once and for all.

Meg Pokrass
May 18, 06:26pm

Has anyone suggested Kickstarter or IndieGoGo? I am sorry if I missed that, and if anyone did. But a crowd-sourcing campaign feels ideal to me for this.

James Lloyd Davis
May 20, 02:43pm

it's not for want of ideas, but for lack of willing hands, but that's alright... it still staggers on, such as it is.

Chris Okum
May 20, 06:43pm

This place is dead. You're in Pruitt-Igoe. Just be happy the electricity is still on and that water is coming out the taps and that they haven't installed the incendiary devices to bring the whole thing down. That will happen soon, I think. Hopefully Jurgen will let us know beforehand so we can gather our belongings.

Gary V. Powell
May 21, 11:22am

I lack the time or energy to undertake this, but here are a couple of thoughts.

1) Form a steering committee--say, Jurgen, Carson, and one or two volunteers committed to preserving this space.

2) Create and share a statement around what F'Naut is (workshop? showcase? social network? all of the above?) It seems to that a fundamental aspect of the prob is that there's no clear mission or purpose, and this place clearly can't afford to be all things to everyone. Some people will choose to leave, but maybe others will be attracted.

3) Develop a plan to implement the mission and create a budget.

4) Implement one part of the plan. Don't try to solve everything--just do one thing.

That's my two cents.
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