Forum / Flash?
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Sam RasnakeMay 28, 01:11pmI’m interested in a viable definition of flash – what it is and what it is not. ?
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David AckleyMay 29, 07:36amHmmm. Baffling silence from the Flashers. What does it mean? Nobody knows? Nobody wants to say? Maybe we're all doing it wrong?
Good question, Sam.
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Susan TepperMay 29, 08:56amFlash in the pan? Flash dance? Flash flood? Flash warning? Flash Gordon? Flasher? Who knows? But it's fun to write. And a good exercise for tightening up longer stories. And even if it's mini-short, it has to have a beginning, middle, and an end. (just like the longer stuff)
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Sam RasnakeMay 29, 10:44am
Thanks for the comment, David & Susan.
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Gary PercesepeMay 29, 11:13amsomething to break your heart in record time?
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Sam RasnakeMay 29, 12:04pm
Good one, Gary.
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Martha WilliamsMay 29, 01:22pmIt's when a guy leaps out in front of you, yanks open his overcoat, and reveals his pen...
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Martha WilliamsMay 29, 01:32pm
Flash - I read an article in a writing magazine today that defined it as a short story of less than 1000 words (and the article intimated that micro fiction was shorter) but I've seen various word counts cited elsewhere. The feeling seems to be that it is a stand-alone piece in the same way as a short story would expect to have an opening/middle/end. But I have seen people on various forums put up snapshots or brief portraits that don't necessarily adhere to the 'complete narrative' definition. When I open a 'flash' piece I just expect something shortish and have an open mind about structure - what does everyone else think?
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Sam RasnakeMay 29, 02:18pm
I've felt that with flash there's an absence of or limited use of dialogue - or at least dialogue present in a deemphasized way. Thanks for the comment, Martha.
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Ramon CollinsMay 29, 03:03pm"A small container for change." -- Roberta Allen
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Martha WilliamsMay 29, 03:12pm
Interesting point there, Sam. I've used dialogue in mine recently but not always inverted commas. I tend to use flash for experimental ideas simply because it's easier to try different things with smaller pieces - bear in mind I've only been writing fiction for a year or so - so I'm still testing the waters. But my earliest pieces were dialogue-free or sparse at least. (Going to go and read some more of other people's now).
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Cherise WolasMay 29, 08:11pmThere is an interesting definition in Wikipedia about flash fiction. I googled "flash fiction definition" to come up with it.
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David KingMay 29, 10:55pmThe way I've always understood flash fiction is that, rather than it being simply a very short story that can be completed in as long as the author likes, it has to be written straight off without any prompt other than a single word or phrase, usually within a set time limit of say half an hour.
Unlike vignettes or anecdotes, they are complete stories and at their best can be surprisingly powerful.
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Sam RasnakeMay 29, 11:22pm
Interesting points of reference here.
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sara t.May 30, 11:24amto me its a story that accomplishes a sense of completeness in a very short space. Meaning, a piece that encompasses what would make a larger piece great, character, strong voice, engaging of the senses and a sense of "fullness".
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Ajay NairJun 01, 12:42amAlways imagine flash to be a quick conversation - though not necessarily, explicit dialogue. A conversation that's the one tenths of what the story is really about.
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Linda Simoni-WastilaJun 01, 09:10amMy concept of flash is what Martha posted. A few years ago I thought of flash as having a twisted, surprise ending that the reader didn't see coming. Now, I see folks in forums/litzines/contests referring to flash as any self-contained story or slice o'life. Peace...
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Sam RasnakeJun 02, 07:58am
I appreciate the comments.
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marci stillermanJun 13, 04:26pmA Flash is a spark of inspiration come to life in a few amazing words that tell a great deal by the spaces between. marci stillerman
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Tony NolandJun 14, 03:32pmThe working definition I use is self-contained, a thousand words or less, usually (but not necessarily) with a twist ending.
By this definition, novel excerpts, installments of serials, etc. would fall outside of the scope of flash.
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Jan OdaJun 21, 06:03pm@Tony is the twist ending really part of it?
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Darryl PriceJun 22, 08:57amIt's what comes off of the moment before you even realize that moment's gone. It's the light a sound makes. It's a squashed fingerprint.It's a punch in the arm from out of nowhere. It's a single feather. It's what happens when you turn to look at something else.It's wanting that kiss again for the first time.It's a car crash. It's a poet brushing her teeth. It's a fish jumping up beside but not into your boat. It's the moon you're aware of shining behind the blinds in your bedroom window but are just too lazy to get up and actually take a look at.It's a tiny flower that was there yesterday.It's a tear in the fabric of the unconscious.And it's all in your head.
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Linda Simoni-WastilaJun 22, 10:16am
DP, you're waxing poetic - again!
Tony, I think the key is self-contained. I beg to differ with you about the twist at the end ;^). A flash is a self-contained story. Not all stories have a twist at the end (though they should have something unique about it -- as should every story/poem/essay). The most effective writing is that with an 'ah-ha' somewhere. If a novel excerpt or serial installment is self-contained, it can be considered it's own short.
Though to be frank, I get a little tired about labeling every piece of writing as a flash or a short or a prose poem or a micro-mini-super-shortie -- the story should dictate length. Other than generally accepted structures (haijus, drabbles, hints, etc) why constrain? why label? Peace...
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Darryl PriceJun 22, 12:20pm
LINDA--YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT!Labeling a thing doesn't make it any easier to perform its magic in any kind of original way.Labeling a thing only leads to labeling people in the end.And that's counter productive to the creative impulse itself.Like shooting fish in a barrel it's easier to criticize writers I suppose when they are lined up in a neat little row at their proper places on a prefabricated made for such things kind of shelf. It's just that it's dishonest, because a piece either moves you in some way or it does not and you shouldn't have to write with a loaded gun pushed up against your head.Hey I just thought of another: It's pissing in the wind while sleep walking.
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Sam RasnakeJun 22, 01:38pm
Interesting notions all –
Let me throw into the mix … Charles Baudelaire’s Paris Spleen. A marvelous collection if you’ve never read it. A piece I’m thinking of is “A Hemisphere in a Head of Hair”. Here’s a link:
Scroll down, then click on the link. This version is translated by Keith Waldrop. The edition of PS that I have is translated by Louise Varèse.
You could easily make a case that it’s a prose poem, and the entire collection could be read as prose poetry – but, you could equally read many of the pieces as stories or flash. “Hemisphere” strikes me as a work of flash – a wonderful piece of writing.
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Martha WilliamsJun 22, 01:45pm
Oh, I'm with Sam - that's gorgeous - it's a portrait, a journey through memories drawn in the scent of hair.
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Darryl PriceJun 22, 02:17pm
Yeah. Absolutely beautiful. The passion remains alive, relevant, palpable:"between potted flowers and cool drinking water." That's what I'm talking about. That is pure art to me and doesn't need to be labeled or defined, just breathed in, just lived in.
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Linda Simoni-WastilaJun 22, 03:34pm
In the ocean of your hair... ah great stuff Sam. Thank you. I'm actually printing out the whol dang thing to read on my upcoming trip (work, but I have a room of my own for three nights - bliss). Art is right. peace...
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Jan OdaJun 23, 05:08am
I think I agree with Linda that labeling fiction isn't always necessary. At the other hand, I tend to write long, and take my time to write a story. So when I discovered the Flash-fiction community on twitter, I not only found some great authors and stories, but I also found it a challenge to write a full story in so few words.
My debut there (and also the only story I've uploaded here, due to the language thing), I am very proud of, because the format / wordcount was a true challenge for me.
If any of you is on twitter and interested to participate, the community is called #fridayflash, every friday you tweet one (newish) flash fiction piece around, and then read and comment on some of the other participants. More info here: http://jmstrother.com/MadUtopia/?page_id=577
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Linda Simoni-WastilaJun 23, 05:54am
Hey Jan! I'll read your story, and welcome to fn and #fridayflash (I hang there as well, so does Tony above, Christian, others here -- almost from the beginning, Jon is a fabulous host).
I also tend to write long, and have found writing both poetry and short stories helps my novels immensely, keeps the writing spare and clean (I like adjectives ;^) )
Thanks for the #fridayflash plug. Peace...
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Tony NolandJun 23, 04:32pm
@Jan The twist ending isn't strictly necessary, but one of the challenges of doing one is making it fresh and interesting, instead of just another gag.
I'm one of the #FridayFlash regulars, along with Linda and others. I'll collected many of mine here: http://www.tonynoland.com/p/flash-fiction.html
I think the labels help to define the form and guide your writing. You can just write the story and see how long it ends up, but editing it always the next step. You write differently from the outset if you know you have to stop in 1K vs. having a 3-5K window.
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Jan OdaJun 23, 06:14pm
Ha! Tony I've been following your twitter for a while, and have been reading your fridayflash stories as well.
I think labels (and genres for that matter) serve a purpose because they give a set of rules you can work with, that aren't necessarily your own, and thus create a challenge. Breaking those rules, and by that creating something new can be very liberating too, but to break them you have to master them first.
I've always liked short stories, but until I actually made myself write one, I didn't fully grasp how challenging it could be.
And it definitely makes you write differently.
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Sam RasnakeJun 23, 07:36pm
Interesting points here on the nature of rules in fiction -
This creates a stumbling block for me in trying to write fiction - micro or flash. There is too much pressure to conform to a certain standard of structure, flow, dialogue, action, language, plot... With poetry - of course I've formed my own religion there, and that helps. The only rule for me is a blank page I need to fill. The poem takes care of the how and what.
With fiction, I can't seem to write with a blank page. And maybe it's just me... I have to have a character, setting, theme, style, or action to start.
With poetry, I follow. With fiction, I lead. If I could write fiction the way I write poetry, I might never write another poem.
But I digress. I appreciate all the comments here.
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Linda Simoni-WastilaJun 23, 08:32pm
Sam, I find it fascinating how you characterize yourself as following a poem but leading a fiction piece.
Oftentimes -- not always -- I follow my fiction. A character (with me, always a character) takes over me and I become a medium of sorts, channeling him or her.
When writing happens like that... oh, such a gift!
I've had fewer poems come to me in such a way, two I can think of now, but they are my best. Effortless. Because I merely followed.
I would so love to get in your head when you follow a poem. Peace...
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Darryl PriceJun 24, 08:16am
This will be my third attempt to leave a closing message before getting kicked off,twice now, and having my words disappeared: you do not have to master the old rules before you break them or invent new ones for yourself. It's all a journey of self discovery. Yes there are those who went before you and invented their own art to such a degree that they are held up as a standard. SO? IF IT WORKS FOR YOU--MEANING IF IT GIVES YOU HEART.PASSION to create with words too then by all means go for it. But it's not a black and white world of writing any more than it's a black and white world of anything. These at best are guidelines not rules. What are we peasants?Haven't we had enough of kings?Rules do not have to be mastered first.
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Jan OdaJun 24, 08:37am
Darryl, I agree that there aren't really rules in fiction, and that they are indeed guidelines at best.
But understanding some of those guidelines can change how you read and enjoy certain stories. For example, when I first discovered tvtropes.org, I suddenly started to see them everywhere, and developed a new level of appreciation for certain authors who played with tropes.
I'm not saying every story has to follow guidelines or break them to be good. Not all fiction needs to be in a certain format or structure.
But when authors use a format or structure that elevates their story, I'm all the more impressed.In the case of flashfiction, I used to enjoy the stories for the stories, but after writing one myself, I have a new appreciation for some authors their capability of telling a whole story in so few words.
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Darryl PriceJun 24, 09:49am
Thanks for the clarification.It's just that from what I've seen rules too often turn into oneupmanship, which brings out the cheaters and the snobs in droves. I'm more interested in the rules of writing as a curiosity, a map, a challenge unto themselves if you will, than an absolute. It's hard to dream with rules, and even though rules can be used as tools, such as to invent things, to let them have power and mastery over your creative impulse I think would be to do yourself in.
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Sam RasnakeJun 24, 10:43pm
One thing that’s coming through in the comments here - and I agree - flash is not about the story. A short story is a unit and is about the story. Flash is different - is something else.
I understand your point DP, but for me - where poetry is concerned, I think knowing the rules is essential so you can - in fact - break the rules. You can't break what you don't know. And, not being able to break away will inhibit or even deny discovery. I've always believed that knowing what not to write is as important as - maybe even more so - knowing what to write.
And I agree - it is hard to dream with rules. Neither rules, nor form, nor audience (and that's the hard one), nor theme ... should govern.
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Michelle ElvyJun 25, 03:07amJust came to this conversation. Interesting points all. Flash is defined by its structure (most noticeably by word count, as others have noted: some define it as 1000 or less, or even 750 or less) -- but flash is not flash if it does not have a sense of completeness. That is, the structure may seem confining (as you mention, Sam), but the beauty in really good flash is telling a whole story within that small space. Flash is supposed to be able to be read quickly -- the definition is as much for the reader as for the writer. And so it should be -- read in a few minutes. BUT excellent flash manages to be read quickly but stay with the reader, and that is the goal of the writer too: to paint a scene or tell a story that is in fact larger than the one short paragraph. I suppose that's what any writer wants to do -- but the unique structure of flash, the defining of it, is important because it sets up this contrast. I agree with Linda, that it is sometimes tiresome to label everything, but the labeling of flash creates a kind of structure in which to operate, and within that structure one tries to be as free as possible. I think I am possibly off point here, but I am actually thinking about your first question, Sam, and how/why we define flash.
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Darryl PriceJun 25, 03:45pm
"You can't break what you don't know." Sam, this is where you and I differ greatly. Yes you can break what you don't know. I understand the need for rules. I've studied them with what I consider great teachers. I haven't arrived at my conclusions without thought or having gone to university. But it's only a way. For some, the perfect way. For others, not so much. I'm against a black and white interpretation of the process, and so much of this defensive stance about the need for rules seems like cliche' to my ears.We are not going to agree on this. But you see that doesn't make me love you any less as an artist. As for Michelle I agree with her completely. She nailed it.The how and why.Cool!
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Sam RasnakeJun 25, 06:33pm
The beauty is, DP, that we don't have to agree. I realize you've come to your view and approach with thought, work, study, experience, conviction… Same for me.
I absolutely agree with you that the rules need to be put aside. I throw away the rules, but I first take them in hand - then let them go. That's who I am, and I can't change that. It's the market place & readers that seem to demand that we keep the rules in place - a poem to go this way or that, to use rhyme / to avoid rhyme, a piece of fiction to need less or more of this ... I wish the piece had done this or hadn't gone there...
Every writer's needs are different. I have to have a wall to tear down, a ridge to walk, a sea to sail. I must have a poem to follow. I don't write a poem; it writes me. Sometimes I even listen, and it finds its way to the page the way it should - but for me.
We can't see, hear, say or write the same word. It's edged with us & by us. That's the beauty of the writing process. You have to write the way you do, and I have to write the way I write - It would be false and fake for either one of us to change.
William Blake: "I see Every think I paint in This world, but Every body does not see alike."
Great interchange here, DP.
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Darryl PriceJun 26, 09:14am
"There's nothing you can do that can't be done."--John Lennon
"Our inner child isn't what we're told,but what we invent.'--Owen Gleiberman
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Sam RasnakeJun 26, 09:21am
The Lennon, of course - but oh the Gleiberman quote. Yes, yes, yes.
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Darryl PriceJun 26, 03:50pm
I could go on taking this position forever but you're much to lovable a person, Sam, old bean, so here's my last bit about all this til next we meet:If this is what you “fellows” are teaching these kids these days I want no part of it. Truth is you could follow all the so-called rules of writing to the maximum “T” and still end up being a bore. Do you tell them that? Because rules don’t make you go deep—YOU make you go deep.Rules don’t make you creative or even close to an original writer/thinker.Yes there are certain skills that can be learned and honed to perfection—maybe—but skills you acquire don’t hold the pen for you, skills don’t think up stories or poems for you or feel for you or live in any way for you.The laws of the universe don’t stop applying themselves just so one can spout out ivory positions to the world. That’s an illusion.Rules don’t dream. Rules don’t invent.Freedom is the challenge, not safety,but courage,spirit to make a mistake and learn from it, grow from it,expressing wholeheartedly the mystery of being without trying to define it, or rule it, or own it,or use it for stupid and selfish reasons only.
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Sam RasnakeJun 26, 05:42pm
I don't think a writer should follow the rules, DP. I may not have made that clear here if you're asking me if I teach students to follow the rules - in poetry - or if you're thinking that I follow the rules. I don't follow the rules, and I teach them to make their own rules. That's the best I can do with the students since I've always been of the belief system that writing can't be taught anyway. It can only be allowed to happen.
I'm only speaking for myself - I need to know the rules, so I can let them go - forever - and find my own way.
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George LaCasJun 26, 09:01pmAhem. Having read the above discussion, which I believe exceeds flash-length, and recalling very little of my university fiction classes regarding flash, I'll say this much and duck back out:
First, I disagree wholeheartedly that flash "is not about the story." All fiction is, or should be, about the story. With flash, it would seem that its short length requires story to be rendered in miniature, often by suggestion and implication rather than fully-fleshed development ... so in that sense I agree that flash must have a beginning, middle, and end.
But in flash, the "story" might well involve only a few moments in time, and its narrative arc might only describe a character's feeling. Or that feeling or thought might make up the spine of the story.
I might also suggest that flash, cooked down to the essentials, approaches poetry in some respects; not all is told, only certain things are shown, and for a good reason.
As for all the talk of rules: all sides have valid points. One must master conventional forms or at least pay them homage, yet rules are made to be broken. Otherwise, we get the same-old same-old, we get cookie-cutter fiction.
But flash fiction, like all fiction, must WORK. It doesn't really matter how it works. Avant-garde can work, as can something rendered in conventional form. And both can fail, too.
The best writers, I would think, know when to follow the rules and when to depart from them, when to improvise, and when to shatter those rules. Indeed, they make their own rules. That's where art comes in.
And art that doesn't work may be self-indulgence. Which of course is a risk I'm willing to take, as I hope many writers are.
Personally, I do my best writing when I'm involved in the flash, poem, scene, or sentence I'm writing. Worrying about what fiction, or flash, "should" be forcibly knocks my Writer hat off and slams the Editor hat down on my head.
My take on flash (which I often see "in a flash" before I write it, btw): If I can imagine a small story and tell it simply, usually with three or less characters, I open a doc and shoot for 500 words. And I have to keep myself out of the way, too, in case someone other than me might like to read it.
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Sam RasnakeJun 27, 07:28am
Agree with the point about flash, George - or any form of writing, really - must work, and the how is not important... as long as it does work.
Natalie Goldberg writes about monkey mind and wild mind. Monkey mind - a dot on a field of white - is like the editor in us all that keeps getting in the way of the creative process - fixing things instead of writing. Everything outside the dot is wild mind. That's where the creative force in the writing is found.
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