Forum / Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

Chris Okum
Nov 17, 06:09pm

i am having a very hard time getting anyone at any "Indie" publishers to look at my work. It seems just as hard as getting someone at a mainstream publishing to look at my work. Tastes have not expanded. The people in indie publishing like the same shit that the people in mainstream publishing like. So I don't think having all of these Indie publishers is making it any easier. It just means there are now more gatekeepers guarding the tiny plot of land that is contemporary lit. Anyone else feel the same way?

Ann Bogle
Nov 17, 07:08pm

Give Jonathan Penton a try at MadHat.

Letitia Coyne
Nov 17, 07:50pm

"Indie" no longer means 'indie - outside of the mainstream, intentionally non-conformist'. When the hoards of mainstream authors finally decided that self-publishing digitally was not as despicable as they had always held it to be, they were happy to move on into the new world as long as they could call DIY, Self-publication, and Vanity Press by a name that did not have such negative connotations. They chose "Indie".

Genuinely new eyes are still out there in isolated pockets, but you have to search hard to find them, and their product is drowned out in the massive swell of DIY, SP, and VP "indie" titles.

Not necessarily a bad thing, but makes for more work.

Lxx

Sally Houtman
Nov 17, 08:05pm

When everyone is 'indie', then no one is 'indie', it seems.

Keep going, Mr O. And don't sell yourself cheap.

Amanda Harris
Nov 17, 11:06pm

"Anyone else feel the same way?"

Yes. I've been feeling this way for years. But for the record, I think they're doing a serious disservice by not looking at your work.

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 18, 12:40am

Always felt that way and I'm aware of exclusivity in the ways of the gatekeepers going back to the 60's when the word was 'power to the people,' but the reality then as now is that, in all things related to art, the call is definitely 'power to the connected.'

All you can do is write the best stuff you can until the day comes when no one can ignore you. Even then...

J.A. Pak
Nov 18, 06:39pm

Lady Luck is your best literary agent.

Letitia Coyne
Nov 18, 09:51pm

hoard
hɔːd/
noun
noun: hoard; plural noun: hoards
1. 1.
a stock or store of money or valued objects, typically one that is secret or carefully guarded.
"he came back to rescue his little hoard of gold"
synonyms: cache, stockpile, stock, store, collection, supply, reserve, reservoir, fund, accumulation, heap, pile, mass, aggregation, conglomeration, treasure house, treasure trove;
Rare amassment: "they found a secret hoard of paintings and porcelain"
○ an ancient store of coins or other valuable artefacts.
"a hoard of Romano-British bronzes"
○ an amassed store of useful information, retained for future use.
"a hoard of secret information about his work"
1. 2.
a term of venery referring to writers who remain sequestered in small rooms and attics, moving about only in a figurative sense and only in the virtual world. "hoards of mainstream authors have become known as indies"

verb
verb: hoard; 3rd person present: hoards; past tense: hoarded; past participle: hoarded; gerund or present participle: hoarding
1. 1.
accumulate (money or valued objects) and hide or store away.
"thousands of antiques hoarded by a compulsive collector"
synonyms: store, store up, stock up on, stockpile, put aside, put by, put away, lay by, lay in, lay up, set aside, stow away, buy up, cache, amass, heap up, pile up, stack up;
collect, save, gather, garner, accumulate, husband, squirrel away, put to one side, put away for a rainy day;
away, salt away
"many of the boat people had hoarded rations"
antonyms: squander
○ keep in one's mind for future use.
"a year's worth of hoarded resentments and grudges"

:) Lxx

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 18, 10:15pm

Resentment never got anyone published, but persistence just might do the job.

Chris Okum
Nov 18, 10:52pm

I agree with you James. But in order to be persistent you need time, and lots of it. Not everyone has the necessary amount of time for the kind of persistence you're talking about.

Sally Houtman
Nov 18, 11:27pm

This goes out to you, Chris Okum:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjEq-r2agqc

Chris Okum
Nov 19, 12:08am

Thank you, Sally. I'm not giving up. I just get frustrated sometime. To me, the writing is the part I (sort of) understand. It's the constant selling of yourself and waving your arms for attention that is hard for me. I don't understand how to do it. And I resent having to do it even though I know it's part of wanting to be a writer. I thought with all the small presses out there it would be easier to get one, just one, person to agree to publish my work, but I'm finding that the people who you would think would be eager to publish anything are just as smug and aloof as the people who work in New York. Like I said, I don't understand. I don't even want any money. I have a job and it supports me and my family. I just want to see my work bound, with a cover that I didn't make on my lunchbreak. You know, writing the kind of fiction I do, small pieces that don't really connect to each other, I would get it if people told me I was being unreasonable if I kept asking why Random House wasn't offering me a 750k advance. But I'm not delusional. I know my work isn't worth that kind of money, or maybe any money at all, which is fine. All I want is for some small press (that has access to a printer, a real printer) to publish my work. But they don't want what I write. They want what the big boys wants. They want something they can sell. They want something that is going to make them money. This is my impression at least. And then I see that some small press is publishing a collection of short/flash type fictions and I contact them and they tell me they're not accepting submissions anymore and they don't normally publish the kind of work I write and they only did it a couple of times and they're not going to do it anymore. I mean, whose dick do I have to suck? Is that what I have to do? Is there someone out there who can confirm this for me? Don't some of you at Fictionaut run small presses? Tell me, who do I have to blow in order to have my work published? Because I'm getting to the point where I will suck one your dicks to have my work published. And I don't even think my wife will mind at this point, because she is sick and fucking tired of listening to me whine and moan about not having a book published. That's all I want in this life. Just one time. To have a book with my name on it. And don't tell me about self-publishing. I won't do it. My dad's best friend is a big-time orthodontist is the SF Valley and he pays to have his 35 year old girlfriend's self-helf books published and then he throws her a giant party where she signs autographs of her self-published book, so that's what self-publishing is to me. I need someone in between me and the book, I need VERIFICATION. But apparently that's too much to ask from some of you people who run smalls presses. So fuck all of you. I'm taking names and holding grudges. Gilbert Sorrentino had the right idea. But then again, Gilbert Sorrentino got his books published, now didn't he? And he had a job teaching at Stanford, so now that I think about it, what was his fucking problem? Anyway, I wanted to throw a hissy fit and let all of you small published know that you suck and that you're just as elitist as the publishers you think you're the antidote to. That's all. Carry on. Don't mind me. I'm going to go have a whiskey and ginger and calm down.

Letitia Coyne
Nov 19, 01:21am

I think Dan Holloway at 79 Rats Press and eight cuts sees publishing very much in those terms. I'm not sure if he accepts submissions, tho, or if he still does print books.

You could ask him.

http://eightcuts.com/
http://79ratpress.blogspot.com.au/p/submit.html

Lxx

Sally Houtman
Nov 19, 02:25am

I hear they both have very nice.........um................publishing companies.

Letitia Coyne
Nov 19, 03:55am

Mmmm. Published some very nice writers. Wonderful wonderful Zoom Zoom by Penny Goring. I liked The Dead Beat by Cody James and Oli Johns' Charcoal.

I'm just not sure how much actual paper publishing Dan is doing now.

Lxx

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 19, 04:48am

"Not everyone has the necessary amount of time for the kind of persistence you're talking about."

If you really love something, you make the time. Otherwise, you wind up resentful, pitiful in yer declining years, telling ever'body, "Uh cudda been somebody... Uh coulda been a contendah..." Then you blame the crass commercial publishers and the elitist academics, the trendy backscratchers and prosties of the lit world who sleep their way into ever shrinking circles of fifteen minute fame on a poorly lit stage with a background of bricks in the coffee houses of Brooklyn.

Chris Okum
Nov 19, 04:57am

You're right, James. You are right.

Henry Standing Bear
Nov 19, 05:25pm

I can't imagine folks turning an eye away from most of the stuff I've read of yours, Chris. I'd be pleased as could be to see something from you at Revolution John.

http://revolutionjohnmagazine.wordpress.com/submissions/

Nonnie Augustine
Nov 20, 03:10pm

I don't have practical advise about this, Chris, but I appreciate everything I've just read in your posts here. I've worked as poetry editor of The Linnet's Wings for six years, gratis, of course, but when I wanted to put a collection of poems together, just in shape to submit somewhere, the managing editor there, Marie Fitzpatrick, offered to publish it and she and I worked it into book form. My brother, a visual artist helped with the design. (I did pay a professional graphic designer, who had a cow when he saw the final printed result, but I won't burden you with all that.) She didn't pay me and I didn't pay her. The Linnet's Wings hasn't made any money from it and I haven't made any money. It's a Pay on Demand deal through Create Space. I would rather have had a different kind of first book experience—one like the kind you are talking about, but rather typically for me, I didn't think the business end of things through very well. The poetry was all I thought about. The book happened the way it did because of my work on a zine, really. I had a connection. Sorry to natter on, but I want to do another book and someday I'd like to have a "real" press publish it. Dreaming, probably.

Jane Flett
Nov 21, 09:28am

Hey Chris,

Your questions got me wondering, do you regularly buy books from indie publishers?

Specifically, do you spend money on collections from small presses of short flashes that don't really connect to each other?

This is just a question, I'm not saying you don't, but certainly...a lot of people don't. The same as a lot of poets never buy new poetry books.

The reason I ask is because I find it surprising you'd say things like:

"the people who you would think would be eager to publish anything"

and

"They want something they can sell. They want something that is going to make them money."

I mean, yes, of course they do! Not because they are filthy capitalists who want blowjobs, but because that's how you afford to buy the printer. That's how you afford your tiny office space.

I've worked for a small press and it's a total labour of love. There's no glory and ivory tower! It's normally people working for free to put books into people's hands because they truly love the writing.

"I see that some small press is publishing a collection of short/flash type fictions and I contact them and they tell me they're not accepting submissions anymore and they don't normally publish the kind of work I write and they only did it a couple of times and they're not going to do it anymore."

I mean, why do you think this is? Because they changed their mind and aren't into these kind of books? Or because after doing it, it doesn't really seem like a viable way to survive?

My advice:

1. Listen to JLD.

2. Read this: http://therumpus.net/2011/03/dear-sugar-the-rumpus-advice-column-69-we-are-all-savages-inside/

3. Write more.

4. Stop buying novels or Starbucks coffees and spend your money on flash collections from indie publishers. Not to suck up to a publisher to get a book deal but because these kind of books are fucking awesome, correct?

5. Read this: http://captainawkward.com/2012/08/04/321-artistic-discouragement/

6. Buy your Christmas presents from indie publishers this year and write reviews of weird indie books on your blog and recommend weird indie books to your friends and contribute to being part of a culture where publishing these sorts of books is more than just an act of sacrifice in the name of art.

7. Unpick the thought process behind this sentence: "the people who you would think would be eager to publish anything".

8. Drink a double whiskey and ginger.

This is a thought process I have been through a lot. Maybe you already do all these things, in which case I have no advice whatsoever apart from 3 and 8.

x

Jane Flett
Nov 21, 09:29am

And let me know whenever your book does come out because I will totally buy it.

Nonnie Augustine
Nov 21, 01:57pm

Well said, Jane. I'm going to follow up on all your links. If trying to make money from publishing books people will buy, is a capitalist proposition, it is a form of capitalism that I can fully support from deep in my socialist heart.

Charlotte Hamrick
Nov 21, 05:00pm

The Dear Sugar Jane references has been a favorite of mine. Jane makes some good points. I've only recently started buying regularly from Indie presses and I'm impressed with the personal notes thanking me for my purchase and the fast delivery. Makes me wanna buy mo.
And I, too, would buy Chris's book in a heartbeat. Good luck and keep trying, Chris. You're a huge talent.

Chris Okum
Nov 21, 05:02pm

Jane:

1. I don't buy books from Starbucks. I get my books from the library. I don't have the discretionary income to buy books anymore. At Christmastime I usually treat myself to a couple of books, and that's when I go to Book Soup here in Los Angeles, or Skylight Books, or any of the numerous used bookstores.

2. I don't need to write more. I think I happen to write a lot. As a matter of fact, I publish at least 3-4 stories here a week, and have done so pretty consistently for the last three years, which is why I have three different books I'm trying desprately to get published, hence the frustration that led me to post this thread. So I'm not quite sure what you mean by write more. I don't need to write more.

3. I think you mean "unpack" the thought process behind the sentence "the people who you would think would be eager to publish anything," not "unpick."

Jane Flett
Nov 22, 09:53am

Oh my god, you're right and I've been saying "unpick" all this time. I always thought of it like thread. How embarrassing. Oh well.

Sorry none of that was any use to you and best of luck with whatever route you do take, Chris.

Nonnie/Charlotte--this is the thought process I came to after many discussions involving publishers and debut short story collections (which is what I want!)

Basically along the lines of:

"We don't really publish many of those because no one buys them and we can't afford it."

"What do you mean no one buys them? If I bought new books, that's totally what I would buy. It's just that I don't buy new books because I don't have much money, so I buy second-hand books or get them from the library or..." *lightbulb moment* "Oh."

So, I'm trying to be better, prioritise my life-spending differently, and support the art I want to exist in the world. Which, I will admit, I find hard, but for me it's better than the alternative.

Charlotte, do you have any good recommendations of indie press books you've bought?

Also, the Neil Gaiman address at the bottom of my second link. So much love!

David Ackley
Nov 22, 02:31pm

Jane,
Check out the "Emerging Writers," blog under the auspices of Dzanc; most of the books mentioned seem to be from small presses. I'd rather "small," than "indie," since, to Chris's point, some seem to be mainstream wannabe's rather than truly "indie," (whatever that means.)

Sam Rasnake
Nov 23, 04:48am

Chris,
I assume you're submitting your individual pieces to magazines - print & online. If not, you should give that a try.

Jane Flett
Nov 25, 10:59am

I will, thanks David! Dzanc are awesome.

eamon byrne
Dec 27, 10:31am

I haven't been at fictionaut for quite a while, but I'd like to add something to this thread because Chris's work I like a lot.

Chris, what you should maybe do is self-publish a selection of your best work and put the result up on Amazon. I know you say you don't want to go down this path, but there are some compelling reasons for doing so.

One writer who used to post on fictionaut and did this (sort of) was Kane X Faucher (he's still listed on fictionaut but no longer has anything on the site). I liked his work quite a bit and wrote some favourable reviews. He told me he had some of his work on Amazon - so I bought 2 of his books ("fort & da", and "The Vicious Circulation of Dr Catastrophe").

The point I'm making is that Kane came to my attention via fictionaut, but I only had a chance to read his work extensively because he had some books out in print.

Now, both these books were not of a very high quality as far as PRINTED OBJECTS go. (I'm not talking about their literary merit.) That's why I figured them to be self-published efforts (sort of). I say sort of because - and Chris, pay attention, because this is the little trick to this self-publishing caper that the big guys don't want you to know - the publisher on the cover was not listed as "Kane Faucher", but, in one case "Six Gallery Press", and in the other "Enigmatic Ink".

I know nothing about these presses, but you don't have to be a brain surgeon to imagine THEY COULD HAVE BEEN PSEUDONYMS FOR KANE FAUCHER. Get it? You can be your own indie publisher!

The thing is, you already have a reputation among your regular readers, some of whom will presumably buy your self-published book (ie, published by the indie press which you invent for the purpose). I'll buy it for one. Charlotte will buy it for two. Already you have PRE-SALES Chris.

With print-on-demand you can even just print, say, 3: one for youself, one for me, and one for Charlotte. That way you can announce on Amazon that the first edition has been SOLD OUT.

Seriously, Chris, I can't understand what's holding you back here.

Chris Okum
Dec 27, 06:10pm

Eamon! Good to read you! Thanks for the advice. I'm going to take it. I had no idea you could do that. I'll give it a whirl. Seriously, this boosts my spirits. Glad to have you back around the site. Hope you stay for a while. Happy New Year.

David Ackley
Dec 27, 08:27pm

Put me down for the fourth, Chris, because I, too, like your work. And because it's good enough to provoke a rare Eamon appearance.

Sally Houtman
Dec 27, 09:27pm

I'm in.

Robert Vaughan
Dec 27, 09:34pm

Ditto, count me in!

James Lloyd Davis
Dec 27, 09:44pm

I'll waiver the price of a pack of Kools and join in.

Joani Reese
Dec 28, 01:31am

Me too. Let me know when your press goes to print.

Chris Okum
Dec 28, 04:26am

I just want to say that all of you are really nice. You've warmed the cockles of me heart. Thank you. With the exception of my kids I am, on a day to day, hour to hour, minute to minute basis surrounded by generally unpleasant people. This has put me a in a good mood, just the air of camaraderie and good will. Not so great for writing, but healthy for the inside. Again, thanks. I hope everyone has a great New Year.

Matthew Robinson
Dec 28, 08:53am

Count me in as a buyer, as well.

eamon byrne
Dec 28, 09:47am

Chris, I once printed out a draft of a novel I was working on using MS Word and a laser printer. I hand-bound it (perfect bound with glued spine - just like a real paperback), designed the cover and printed it on cream-colored photocopy paper. The whole thing turned out really neat, 253 pages, and it hasn't fallen apart in my hands yet. My experience doing this might help you, or other readers of this post, so bear with me.

There is a very good reason for doing a self-made prototype. It will enable you to give proper instructions to your print-on-demand printer. They will probably want a pdf file and what this looks like will determine final layout. They will also probably ask you to submit a cover design, or else will offer to give you one of their generic covers. I'd suggest you NOT use anything they offer by way of in-house cover design, as it might make your final product look too assembly-line. Do your own. A minimalist plain text one like you get with the French publisher Les Editions de Minuit would do nicely.

You should also specify paper color and paper weight. I'd strongly recommend NOT printing on plain white photocopy-type paper. Most mainstream publishers will print on a much darker-toned and less glossy paper. Glossy paper for magazines is OK, but for book fiction it sucks. For a laser-printed prototype, choose a light cream-colored or newspaper-grey stock similar to books you have on your own bookshelf. I used Reflex 80gsm and I was very careful to choose a color which matched books which were real books.

If you have a normal laser printer and Microsoft Word (or even Open Office), plus a small pot of binding glue, you are in business.

Here were the steps I took:

1) Settings in Word:
Page Layout: A4
Page Setup:
Margins: Top: 0.8" (inch)
Bottom: 0.5"
Outside: 0.7"
Inside 0.4"
Gutter: 1"
Multiple Pages: 2 pages per sheet
Orientation: landscape
Paper: Default tray (Auto)
Layout: Header: 0.5" (for page title - optional)
Footer: 0.4" (for the page number)

2) In the Word print dialogue, enter the sequence of page numbers for the book at the "pages" radio button.
Example: for a 16 page booklet, enter:
16,1,2,15,14,3,4,13,12,5,6,11,10,7,8,9

(Follow that pattern for 32, 64, 128 pages etc - it's just groups of four)

3) The rest of the settings are made through the dialogues pertaining to your specific printer:
Properties: Default 1 page per sheet. Landscape

Finishing: 2 - side printing
short edge: left

To get your font size and font type right, try both 12px and 14px with both Georgia and Bookman Old Style (for example), and print just a couple of pages to see which you like best.

If you're using a non-duplex printer, you will have to run the pages back through the printer after flipping the pages in order to get double-sided printing. I think the preceding instructions will have to be modified somewhat (I used a duplex printer Canon LBP3300). You will probably have to fiddle a bit - but you will get there.

Your best bet is to experiment by printing a 4 page document on a single sheet of A4. Then graduate to an 8 pager on 2 sheets.

The main thing is paper quality (I used 80gsm), paper color (NOT pure white), correct margins and fonts.

The gutter margin is the bit on the page that separates left and right pages - this has to be at least 1 inch, or the reader will have trouble reading near the spine.

The suggested margins should result in the margins at left of left pages, and right of right pages, being nice and big. You can experiment with these settings to get your desired look.

Glueing.

After the sheets were printed, I carefully folded the sheets at the centre (gutter) - this made a single sheet into 4 pages. Then I clamped them into a block using a couple of bulldog clips. (A proper clamp would be better.)

I printed the cover using a "legal" size of slightly thicker paper (216mm x 356mm). If you print the cover on A4 it will be too short. I did the design very simply using Microsoft Paint. The main difficulty was getting the printing for the spine correctly aligned.

The final stage was the glueing. I brushed glue along the spine edge of the pages block, and a light coat along the spine area of the inside cover. I made sure the glue covered about half an inch beyond the spine edges of both front and back pages of the block, so that the cover would glue to a half an inch of the first and last pages of the block. That ensured the cover fully "gripped" the block.

These first and last pages were "fly leaves" - that is, blank pages. In fact, pages 1,2,3 and 4 were left blank, page 5 was my copyright page, page 6 my title page and the text started on page 7 (though the number in the footer of this page was "1"). Correspondingly, I then had 4 blank pages after the last printed page (which was "253" in its footer). Hope that makes sense. Front cover, 2 blank sheets, text, 2 blank sheets, back cover.

The trick is not to put too much glue on the spine or it seeps through and makes the pages stick to each other at the spine edge. You have to be absolutely careful in having all the pages of the block clamped tight and in perfect alignment at the spine edge, otherwise you'll have a loose 4-page sheet.

You now have a finished printed book on your desk to gloat over!

Doing this puts you, the author, in control of the book design. You can even send it along with the pdf to your on-demand printer.

Hope that helps, and good luck.

David Ackley
Dec 28, 02:15pm

A wonderful tutorial in book making( not the betting kind). Eamon's genius is only exceeded by his generosity.

Charlotte Hamrick
Dec 28, 09:21pm

Wow. I'm copying and saving this tutorial in case I ever decide to publish. The thought of actually designing the book is as exhilarating as self-publishing. Thanks, Eamon.

Sally Houtman
Dec 28, 09:34pm

That made me hurt in parts of my brain I didn't know existed.

Gary Hardaway
Dec 29, 12:53am

Wonderful guidance.Didn't know Word could be taught tricks like this.

Barry Basden
Dec 29, 02:48pm

If you're going to self publish and want actual books, do you want to bind and glue each one yourself? There are small-run printers out there who will do 25 or less copies quite reasonably.

If you want to sell them online, the problem is Amazon, the big gorilla. They charge a 55% discount from cover price to list your titles. Plus, the freight to get them to their warehouses is on you.

Personally, I'd go ebook, for which Amazon pays you a 70% royalty for titles selling @ $2.99 and up, otherwise 35%.

But if you are set on hard copies, you might want to join the self-publishing group at Yahoo. Great info & lots of reasonable help there, at least awhile ago.

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/Self-Publishing/

Been there, done that.

Smiley McGrouchpants, Jr-Esq-III
Dec 31, 12:04am

There are fiefdoms that set in; not unlike the way indie film, indie music tend to follow "trendsetters." Bruce Anderson had a great piece in the "Anderson Valley Advertiser" in the early '80s, about how all these San-Fran lit. types "sleep with each other like in bat circles, publish each other's work, give each other the awards they have to give," etc. (that's not verbatim — except for the "bat circles" part!).

I don't want to name places that have given me a curiously-quick turnaround (1 business day/48 hrs-or-so) for a "NO" with the standard form letter. It's like, "Why bother?" Particularly since we're still at the labor-of-love, happy-to-stay-afloat level of existence. (IOW: Nobody's flush on expense accounts/promo junkets, and/or looking to protect THOSE coveted places, obviously ... and yet, this shit happens ANYWAY? Fuck that!)

Still, though ... a lot of good presses come out with stuff (Caketrain, A Public Space, "The First Line"/Worker's Write series) so it does, ultimately, feel not-unworthwhile to keep plugging away ... thank god for Fictionaut! Otherwise, I'd be the proverbial tree falling in the woods, (all-but) unheard ...

I feel your pain, Chris. Fuck the (cultural) stalactites — move OVER!

whatwouldbukowskido
Jan 06, 01:28am

Whatever you do, Chris, don't give any copies away.

People always act so pleased to be offered, to receive...

but as a rule never respond

(and probably don't even read).

We only value that which we pay for

(or find in the trash).

whatwouldbukowskido
Jan 06, 01:43am

I'm guilty of it myself...

;-)
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