Forum / fictionautiquette

Lynn Beighley
Mar 25, 12:03pm

When I joined, I didn't know what I was doing, and I harangued the person who invite me with questions about etiquette for fictionaut.

It took me a while to figure out that thanking people by posting on their walls was the way to do it, not simply by responding to their comments on your piece.

Not posting too often, that's another one.

And if you expect to be read, you have to read and interact with the community.

What do you tell the people you invite?

Frankie Saxx
Mar 25, 04:16pm

Oh god, you are talking about me, aren't you? I have done those things! I have posted several things! (And I get very excited when the limit lets me post something else.) And I respond to comments on stories, not on pages!

Please don't blame Marcus. It's not his fault. I'm like a very large, very exuberant, very badly trained dog. I got so excited; I trampled all over your carpet with my muddy feet, wagged the lamp off the end table, and stuck my face in Aunt Mildred's crotch, all before he could put my collar on.

I am so mortified. I am why you cannot have nice things. Really, I do not know why anyone invites me anywhere. :(

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 25, 04:33pm

Frankie ... relax. Some people have been here forever and haven't really caught on. Exuberance is forgivable. Apathy's another matter altogether.

Marcus Speh
Mar 25, 04:43pm

i like that, jim. exuberance gives energy and begs for debate, apathy is just an empty space, an energy sucker. communities are fascinating. i'm just writing an article about that ... on a different blog on a different group (shareholders). digital communities are even more difficult than real ones in some respect. bless everyone who engages...

@lynn i invited frankie and i don't think i told him anything except "have fun". i believe the community can regulate itself very well. we've had our share of flame wars (i've not been in them just watched them) but overall...nothing like what you see on political or religious chat rooms/bulletin boards. somehow, the common interest is stronger than what divides us.

your rules aren't bad though i only believe in the second one. i end up telling this people who complain about not getting any reaction: all communication is based on seeing others and being seen by them.

since starting <a href="http://kaffeinkatmandu.com">kaffe in katmandu</a> i have been on a steep community creating learning curve (and i've done these things since 20 years) and once again i am amazed how disciplined creatives can and want to be when they share a common set of goals - to create something beautiful and useful.

Lynn Beighley
Mar 25, 05:21pm

I certainly didn't mean these were rules! Just wisdom about what works best and how to best get along. Honestly, it's a bit painful to go to everyone's walls and (as truly, truly grateful as I am) come up with a creative way to say "thank you" again and again. :)

No, I think these are just things I wish I had been aware of as good practices a bit earlier. Do or do not, your choice, won't offend me a bit! I'm easy.

Lynn Beighley
Mar 25, 05:27pm

And, by the way, if you don't thank me for a comment or fav I'm not in the least bit offended. I just won't read any more of your work. No, I jest, of course I will.

Frankie Saxx
Mar 25, 05:34pm

I still have no idea how to tell who's favorited or commented on my page. The FAQ says I will get a message, but I cannot find them. I get email if someone comments on my story.

Lynn Beighley
Mar 25, 05:35pm

You don't get any notification of a fav. Comments, yes. Generally why (oh god, another pseudo rule) it's a good idea to leave a comment if you fav something.

Sam Rasnake
Mar 25, 06:01pm

Everybody treats comments in a different way, Lynn. I never respond to comments on writers' walls. I respond in the posts - since I have the comments in front of me. Makes more sense to me - or maybe it makes more sense to my personality. If I commented on the walls - I'm sure I'd forget to respond to some or most.

Lynn Beighley
Mar 25, 06:09pm

It certainly makes more sense, Sam. I think the drawback is that the person who commented might never know you responded, since they get no notification.

(I have many thoughts on user interface tweaks that could make fictionaut even more user friendly than it already is. I'll save that for some other thread.)

Frankie Saxx
Mar 25, 06:24pm

Well, I am still learning. But don't worry, ya'll are safe from my profligate proliferating until at least tomorrow. ;)

Linda Simoni-Wastila
Mar 25, 07:29pm

I like this thread -- good manners make good neighbors.

I generally thank folks on the post itself -- same reason as Sam -- and then every now and then I drop a line on someone's wall to thank them generally for all their support and kindness and suggestions.

And now off to thank a few fictionauters who kindly commented on a post, then return to my self-imposed sabbatical from all things internet (queries and contests and deadlines, oh my!). Peace...

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 25, 07:57pm

This would be a great thread in which to issue a blanket 'thank you.' A way of covering any sins of omission we may have committed in the past by neglecting to properly thank any and all of our readers to the fullest extent by all possible means. In the spirit of fictionautiquette, it feels like the right thing to do.

Here's mine:

"I, James Lloyd Davis, want to take this opportunity to thank anyone and everyone on Fictionaut who ever read, commented, and/or faved any of my work on this site. If you didn't, that's okay too. I'm just pleased to be here, truly grateful, and quite fortunate to be included in this truly great online community."

Thank you.

Thank you all.

Thanks again.

stephen hastings-king
Mar 25, 08:31pm

I like the idea of saying thanks to folk...so:

I've learned a tremendous amount from the f/n community---and I've had the pleasure of reading many lovely things, exploring work by folk I did not know about and some I did know about.

Group hug.

Pass me the rum, please.

I usually leave responses to the comments folk are kind enough to leave by my peculiar little stories alongside the stories for basically the same reasons as Linda and Sam mentioned above. But I do sometimes wonder about whether folk see it, whether people return to piece they've already read. I know I have difficulty doing so because of the volume/turnover on the front wall and limitations of my memory, most of which I blame on my wayward youth.

At least I think I do.

Linda Simoni-Wastila
Mar 25, 08:53pm

I just love you guys.

I thank Michael Solender for inviting me -- he suspected I might find a literary home here.

He was right.

The connections and friendships I've made here are invaluable. The quality of writing astounds me always -- and it has taught me more than a workshop or a book on how to improve my craft.

So thanks.

And now it is time for the weekend to begin -- I raise my glass to each and everyone of you.

peace...

Susan Gibb
Mar 26, 04:40pm

I too tend to thank for comments on the story page and not on the walls. I'm afraid I'm directionally dysfunctional and spatially impaired and that if I wander away to a wall I will lose my place.

Frankie Saxx
Mar 26, 05:04pm

What I take away from this is that it's okay to reply to comments on the story, but if I def. want someone to see a comment (besides the story writer) I should also go to their page.

:)

Christopher Allen
Mar 28, 09:29pm

I try to thank everyone who comments on my work. I usually do this by replying to the comments on the story. Of course I'll have a look at the writer's work as well.

James Lloyd Davis
Apr 16, 01:54pm

I just thought the idea of etiquette for a group like this, for any online group, is a good subject to keep alive. As online groups go, this one is one of the best in terms of demeanor, generally polite and supportive of the membership.

Nonetheless, it's always a good idea for writers to respect their readership and to show appreciation wherever possible, so maybe that would be a fundamental protocol, one that should be periodically restated and encouraged.

Mark Reep
Apr 16, 02:58pm

I stop by everyone's walls to thank those who comment on my stuff. Takes a little more time, but they gave me some of theirs, and this way it's much more likely they'll know it's appreciated.

At least, that's my take :)

Susan Gibb
Apr 16, 04:32pm

James has a point about protocol, though I'm not sure if we need more rules here. I think it's like Windows O/S, where there are just too many different ways of doing things instead of just one that would make life easier.

Did I just say restriction is better?

W.F. Lantry
Apr 16, 06:26pm

Oh, boy. This thread, and another like it, kept me from posting for weeks. And just when I start up again, it's back. Maybe I should take the hint? ;)

I know: I write too much, and read too little. I enjoy comments, but don't make enough of my own. I am, in short, a rotten human being, of truly reprehensible character. Dang! ;)

Maybe we *should* make a rule. Against people like me! ;)

Thanks,

Bill

James Lloyd Davis
Apr 16, 09:10pm

Restriction was never my intent or suggestion in bringing this thread back. People should post and often. I love to come here just to read and get feedback. I find a continual source of inspiration and some truly fine writing here.

No, my intent was in saying that people should be careful to acknowledge the comments and faves of their readers. Only that.

This is a social site, after all. It's only polite to say ... "thanks."

Of course, we can make exception for literary rock stars, fashionably luminous slam poets, and other aesthetes, writers who must continually protect themselves from the unnerving enthusiasm and terrifying influence of the grasping masses.

No, wait ... I'm sorry. It's terribly rude of me to say things like that. Especially when my whole point is ... etiquette.

Never mind.

H-M Brown
Apr 17, 04:37pm

Lynn Beighley Quote: 'And if you expect to be read, you have to read and interact with the community.'

NO!

I don't who came up with that so-called "Rule", but that's wrong and sends a bad message.

This is what that "Rule" essentially says to me:

Writer A tells Writer B: "Well I read and commented on your work, now you have to read and comment on my work, and everybody will pay attention to you and welcome you into the community and all will read your work."

People, especially Writer's, should read our stories because of either:

A) You like the writer and his/her stories.

or

B) Your interested in reading the story posted on Fictionaut.

There is no "Owing" to read a story because you read and comment on that person's work.

It's not nice to demand or expect other writers to read and comment your work just because you read and commented on theirs.

Nor should those writers demand or expect you (let alone feel "owed") to read and comment on their work after they've read your own work.

There's no obligation to do such things.

You read and comment on a Writer's story because you wanted to read and comment on that Writer's story... NO STRINGS ATTACHED.

We writers barely have time to read every single work here Fictionaut anyway, because for the most part, we're too busy doing the one thing we writers should be doing on Fictionaut...

Write.

Susan Gibb
Apr 17, 05:41pm

Yeah, we're writers. No need for us to be courteous or supportive or anything.

James Lloyd Davis
Apr 17, 06:09pm

Hmmm, would this be the concept of the artist's splendid isolation in his or her own world of aesthetic and intellectual superiority? If so, and in light of that concept, I would have to ask myself, now, 'What would Nietzsche do?'

Oh ... no ... wait. Isn't this an online community for writers? A place where creative writers convene to share their work and suggest, promote ideas concerning the quality of that work, while assisting and supporting one another toward the mutual goal of making that work better, finer, and ultimately more appealing?

Yes, I think it is a community, which brings us to another concept altogether, one where 'strings' are more than just metaphorical. They are necessary. They bind us together. Think 'community' and what the word implies.

We can't expect anyone to reciprocate our interest. No one has to acknowledge me or read my work and comment simply because I take the time to do as much for them. Further, no one has to thank me for, or even acknowledge my comments or faves. But it's nice when they do.

No rules. Just consideration. A community thrives on such things.

H-M Brown
Apr 17, 06:26pm

There's a difference between reading and commenting a writer's story about how you like it, then help out by giving advice to help improve that writer's ability, and TELLING A WRITER that it's "etiquette" to "read and comment someone's story in order to get your own story read and commented on" in order to be part of a community.

To quote Ms. Beighley again: "And if you expect to be read, you have to read and interact with the community."

Why should it be an expected mandatory pre-requisite to read other works in order for your own work to be read?

Why should I have to demand or expect any of you to read and comment my work if you don't really want to read my work after I read and commented on your work?

Would that not make me look like a jerk if I commented, "Now that I read your work I expect you to read and comment my stories." or if I make a nice comment and the expect you to read my work without knowing what your reading interests are?

What's the point of being "courteous or supportive or anything" if as Ms. Beighley said the Rules laid out by Members of Fictionaut is "if you expect to be read, you have to read and interact with the community."?

That's very "courteous or supportive or anything" of us writers to our fellow writers, I "expect" you to read and comment my work and I'll read and comment yours in return.

The bottom line is that we read as you said to be courteous, supportive, helpful, or be a fan...

NOT

...to be "owed or expected" a read and comment in return in order to include that writer into the Fictionaut community.

Wasn't there a post talking about this exact quote last year?

Lynn Beighley
Apr 17, 09:10pm

"And if you expect to be read, you have to read and interact with the community."

I should have said, and thanks for the vehement feedback,

"And if you expect to be read, it's polite to read and interact with the community."

I read everyone's work, as I have time. I'm more inclined, when I don't have time, to read the work of people I've had some interaction with. That's all. Thanks for reading this.

Lynn Beighley
Apr 17, 09:19pm

But I do think of it like a reading. If I'm going to get up and read my work with a group of other writers, I won't just walk in, read my story, and leave. I stick around and listen to them. Not doing so is rude.

It's not a rule. It's simple politeness. And why communities succeed.

James Lloyd Davis
Apr 17, 09:43pm

Lynn, your point was clear enough the first time it was stated. Clear enough to me, anyway. It's strange that your point should elicit such a negative response. It's ironic, too, that a discussion about etiquette should turn into an argument.

Sorry I brought it up again.

Susan Gibb
Apr 18, 12:02pm

Clear enough for me too, Lynn, and I completely agree with you.

H-M Brown
Apr 18, 04:16pm

Ms. Beighley Quote: "But I do think of it like a reading. If I'm going to get up and read my work with a group of other writers, I won't just walk in, read my story, and leave. I stick around and listen to them. Not doing so is rude."

Ms. Gibbs Quote: “Clear enough for me too, Lynn, and I completely agree with you.”

@ Ms. Beighley and Ms. Gibbs:

The Difference between a Reading Session and Fictionaut, is that in a Reading Session, everyone is present and In-Person, looking at each other eye to eye, so it makes perfect sense for this Rule "And if you expect to be read, you have to read and interact with the community." to exist.

Fictionaut is a WEBSITE in addition to a Community, where we are not sitting in a circle for a set period of time, staring at each other, and In-Person holding pages of our work to read aloud. So this rule "And if you expect to be read, you have to read and interact with the community." does not make sense. In fact it sounds rude on the Internet.

People here on Fictionaut are going to read and comment to each others works anyway, not because of the Rule "And if you expect to be read, you have to read and interact with the community.", but because it IS an act of kindness and courtesy, as it should be.

If you both want to live by the rule that you won't read other Member's work unless they read and comment on your own work first here on Fictionaut, then more power to you. It's your prerogative.

But don't tell or expect the rest of us Fictionaut Members to do the same because that's the rule you two live by during an In-Person Reading Session.

Especially if we Fictionaut Members are already reading and commenting out of respect and kindness, and not because some Unwritten Rule says so.

Lynn Beighley
Apr 18, 05:47pm

Mr. Brown, I have no desire to tell you what you should or should not do. I never intended my comments to be taken as rules, but rather as good rules of etiquette.

"The customary code of polite behavior in society or among members of a particular profession or group."

It makes no difference to me how you behave on f'naut, as I trust it makes no difference to you how I do.

Thomas Pluck
Apr 18, 08:12pm

I didn't think of it as a rule, but it's a good answer to anyone wondering why their stories don't get many reactions.

Susan Gibb
Apr 18, 09:04pm

Thomas, you hit the nail on the head. There have been many threads addressing this issue!

I hate to see any rules and nobody presented it as such. Think of "should" as something your mother might try to teach you to do as encouraging thoughtful, considerate behavior.

James Lloyd Davis
Apr 19, 04:20pm

Mom tried, but I was not a good student of etiquette. I learned 'polite' as the protocol of respect in the service and as a ironworker in places where being a jerk was dangerous. Of course, Sister Mary Bruno taught me early on how, when I really, really wanted to be obnoxious? Better I should keep my mouth shut ...

It's hard sometimes, but when I am considerate and helpful, I know that, often, I will receive in kind. Internet or not, the strictures of decency should apply.

Like my sainted grandmother would say, "Jimmy, somebody needs to learn the true meaning of ... you get what you pay for."

James Lloyd Davis
Apr 19, 04:22pm

"an ironworker" not "a ironworker," though an ironworker might say that.

H-M Brown
Apr 19, 05:44pm

@ Ms. Beighley: I know you didn't come up with the rule that's why I said in my first comment in Page 1 - "I don't who came up with that so-called "Rule", but that's wrong and sends a bad message."

This has been discussed in another topic before some time ago, so it's not you personally.

And behavior is not the issue I have, it's saying to members of Fictionaut, "And if you expect to be read, you have to read and interact with the community."

It's saying in the context of a "Rule of Etiquette", that if you want your work to be read, you have to read our work first and then we'll gladly read your work, or else we won't bother reading your work since you're not reading our work first. That's how I am interpreting the "Rule of Etiquette" of that statement.

Every writing member on Fictionaut has a personal purpose and a personal sense of pacing when writing here.

There are some who write here out of hobby and rush it out. There are others who use Fictionaut as a training area to improve their writing and take their time between postings. There are some who write to be read and have their work commented on, and then return the comments in kind by reading that person's work. There are also others who write quietly with little interaction and let the chips fall where they lie. We are all very diverse writers here on Fictionaut with different objectives.

This is what I have come to understand during my time here on Fictionaut

If our common goal as members of Fictionaut is to write, read, and share thoughts with each other, then each of us have our own separate and personal paths to achieve that same goal.

David Ackley
Apr 19, 07:27pm

This thread seems to dance lightly over or around what I think is the real issue yet to be raised, not colored by talk of "etiquette" or "rules" but simply the question of what it means to be a participating member of fictionaut.

And I think that is simply that one recognize that to be here is to accept that one is here both as reader and writer. Yes, it is a reciprocal condition, though hardly, I should think, a burdensome one for any serious writer. Is any writer worth the name not a serious reader? Who could dislike the opportunity to see on a daily basis the current work of writers as good as those here? Who could claim they can't learn and benefit from reading that work? And yet, over time, it becomes clear that there are a fair number whose object in being here is not to read and be read, but to write and be read. I should say, to be clear, that none of the participants in this thread on either side of the argument fall into that category.

But I have to say frankly that, with few exceptions, I've stopped reading the work of those who consistently use the site as a showcase for their own works, but refuse to read or at least visibly read, by commenting, on the work of others.

I could care less if someone neither reads nor comments on my own work. But I will for the most part avoid the work of those who seem not to read anyone's work but their own. I would call this neither a rule, nor etiquette, but a fair estimate of what's implicitly involved in membership in this particular community, whose readership is for the most part comprised of the other writers here.

Ann Bogle
Apr 19, 09:16pm

David, I like your view.

H-M Brown
Apr 19, 09:26pm

@Mr. Ackley: There in lies an intriguing scenario, for if one reads and not comments, how does the writer know his/her work have been read to begin with? Comments are not mandatory yet we have to rely on the trust that the number of 'Views' our work accumulates equals the number of actual reading done by the visitor. It is a strange form of an honor system that we trust the non-commenting reader had genuinely read our story at hand.

I am kind of curious though, if a writer is showcasing their work while simultaneously reading everyone else's work without making a comment to the story, and because they don't comment, you would just come to the generalized conclusion that the showcasing writer is not being a fair writer to others on Fictionaut thinking only of himself, and thus you would refuse to read the showcasing writer's work regardless of the dedicated reading they've done without a single comment made? Please correct me if I'm wrong, I just want to understand your point of view better regarding that.

@Ms. Beighley: I just thought of something, anybody can actually start a Group Page here on Fictionaut. You could actually create your own Reading Session Group Page where you can invite or add fellow writers like in a real life In-Person Reading Session, you can then set the rules, time, and date of the session for the story to be presented and after everyone reads, you use the Discussion Thread to get everyone to talk about the stories posted up in the Group Page. :) That sounds cool.

Also I would like to apologize for any insane run-on sentences I have been posting on here. It's very hard to break a sentence down while debating simultaneously. :)

I'm not a good multi-tasker. ;)

David Ackley
Apr 19, 10:21pm

H.M.:
Both your first comment and the question following are good ones. We don't know when, or whether a "View" represents a " read." I might reply (facetiously) that if anyone cared what I thought it might behoove them to affirm their "reads" with comments. However, I can't believe that what I think carries that much weight, nor should it.

Logically, it's also possible that a person might read a great deal and never comment, as you note. However, it doesn't seem entirely reasonable; if you applied yourself enough to read a piece, why wouldn't you occasionally comment, just so the writer could have the satisfaction of knowing that someone actually had read it? So the scenario of someone who reads a great deal and never comments seems to me possible but unlikely and not one, in any event, I feel like factoring into my own choices of whose work I'll read.

I'm not proposing either a rule or even a standard of etiquette, rather simply saying how I approach the matter and why.

Thanks, Ann.

H-M Brown
Apr 20, 12:53am

@ Mr. Ackley: You're absolutely right, there is nothing wrong with making an occasional comment from time to time. Even if the story is weeks to a few years old on Fictionaut. And especially if the effort was made to read it in the first place.

This was a fun debate. :)

David Ackley
Apr 20, 03:46am

Yes, HM, I thought so too, and fun to read your spirited contribution to it.

Frankie Saxx
Apr 27, 09:38pm

Would this be the place where I say, I'm very sorry for the past couple weeks where I've been completely snowed under and during which people have left me many lovely comments and I have been dull and silent in return; I promise I will read them all in the very near future and say thank you?
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