Forum / Strictly out of curiosity...

David Lindsay
Apr 24, 01:05pm

...why do so many (in my opinion) writers on websites such as this rarely take the time to read or comment on anything over 1000 words or so? For those of you who are also on Zoetrope, that's one of my big complaints with them. Again, just curious.

Oh, and while micro, flash, and shorter short stories seem to be the trend, shouldn't we encourage writers to write and readers to read longer, more detailed, plotted pieces?

I think that's all.

Estelle Bruno
Apr 24, 02:21pm

I agree with you. Sometimes I am also guilty of this, maybe the reason being, people seem to have so much on their plates, there isn't always time.

You are all fantastic writers.

Susan Gibb
Apr 24, 03:03pm

I'm guilty of passing on longer stories too! Realistically, when there are twenty to thirty new stories a day posted it's impossible to read them all fully. I do like to at least look at each one and start it to see if it grabs me. There's some wonderful writing here but unless you've got hours to spend, and with the steady influx of new writers, those who post regularly and often, and those who have become favorites that you want to read each of their pieces, you just have to draw the line somewhere.

Susan Gibb
Apr 24, 03:04pm

Actually, just went back and saw you stated 1000 words or over; that wouldn't stop me. I'm antsy when they're marked 2500 or more and if they don't pace well from the beginning.

David Ackley
Apr 24, 03:29pm

What I'm going to say applies to neither Estelle nor Susan, who I've seen soldier on through much longer than typical pieces and comment, when most here had passed them by.
But I worry about the aesthetic judgement of those who'd take one look at a piece's word count and bail. Are these people who only listen to songs never symphonies? Who only look at small, simple paintings rather than large complex ones? Never watch an hour long tv show, a baseball game, or play cards for a couple of hours? If they do, how can a long piece of fiction demand any less attention?

I think there are very good writers on this site--and this is one of my few complaints-- who are overlooked simply because they're willing to confront the different demands that a long piece of fiction requires. They deserve better from us.

Walter Bjorkman
Apr 24, 04:17pm

I think you need to consider that some of us mentally bookmark them for later reading with more time, I know I do. The problem with that is, keeping track and, not for me but many, getting the planned time. Some of us still do symphonies.

Kevin Myrick
Apr 24, 05:57pm

David, I think the problem is that reading on the computer is a lot different than reading from a journal, mag or paperback book.

But I agree with you: we should take time to appreciate the longer stories.

David Ackley
Apr 24, 06:24pm

Walter, if you read them at the time or later then you're not one of those I was talking about.

Kevin, we both know that "reading on the computer" is not the problem. We all read on the computer when we're working on our own pieces, often for hours at a time. PDF and printing pieces out are other options.

What seems to be the case is that there is a simple unwillingness to make the reading commitment that a longer piece requires. I think this is a failing on the part of writers to provided the readership that their fellow members of the guild need and deserve. It is also to neglect their own education in aspects of the art that they might do well to learn.

David Lindsay
Apr 24, 07:48pm

"What seems to be the case is that there is a simple unwillingness to make the reading commitment that a longer piece requires. I think this is a failing on the part of writers to provided the readership that their fellow members of the guild need and deserve. It is also to neglect their own education in aspects of the art that they might do well to learn."

DA, that's more what I'm talking about. I do realize people - especially sometimes writers - have a lot going on (I have a wife, a full time job, four kids still at home, I read, I write, and I know for a fact I'm not as busy as some writers). I'm not a particularly big fan of flash, writing or reading it, but there's some wonderful flash pieces out there, and, ironically, my first two acceptances were flash pieces. I had to at least give it a try. I really don't quite understand writers who don't at least read and write in all forms, experimental, flash, novellas, novels, all forms. At least read it and encourage those who do. And give other forms a whirl; you might find strengths you didn't know you had.

Kevin Myrick
Apr 24, 08:00pm

DA - I agree to disagree with you about reading on a computer. You and I and other writers spend hours and hours and hours reading and working on computers every day. But people like my mother - who I love dearly but do not do well on computers - won't make that reading commitment for my longer pieces but love some of my shorter works.

I'll add that in my own experience, I tend to read at night (books, magazines, stories here) and I'm not a huge fan of the monitor so much after spending 90 percent of my awake time in front of it. I think it does make a difference.

Sure, I could print stuff off. But if I did that with every story I wanted to read, there wouldn't be a rain forest left in Brazil.

I'm just saying that I agree with you that we should all read more longer pieces (and with DL about experimentation) but I also think there's more to it than just a simple black and white situation.

David Lindsay
Apr 24, 08:38pm

By the way, I took the time to read at least one piece by all of you; you guys are pretty good writers. Thanks for your opinions.

David Ackley
Apr 24, 09:09pm

Thanks both for raising this perennially interesting question, and for the read, David.

Matt Dennison
Apr 25, 12:30am

Using the pdf utility at the top of the page is a great aid in reading the longer pieces.

H-M Brown
Apr 25, 09:08am

There are a couple of reasons.

1) Is that a 3500 to 4500 word posting here has no page breaks like a book, unless you go on PDF here. (Which I don't think many readers here realize that there is a PDF option). Instead, you get one continuous and mindnumbing chapter page rather than a 10 page chapter. In other words imagine holding a book and one page has all 4500 words of one full chapter on that one page. Very exhaustive and annoying.

2) The other problem, I think, is the idea that readers feel that they have to read a prose, magazine article, or anything in one sit down. Even though logically, like holding a physical book itself, you can always "put a computer down" and always come back to the reading later.

Realizing this stigmatic problem, I try to encourage all my readers not only to read my works in PDF format, but to also take their time reading. That they don't have to read my works in one sitting. I really don't have any intentions of pulling my works out of Fictionaut anytime soon.

Kevin Myrick
Apr 25, 11:36am

Here's a wouldn't it be nice feature for Fictionaut to consider: some sort of bookmark scheme where you could leave off where you were last reading on a story... I imagine it would take quite a bit of coding to figure it out, but wouldn't that be awesome?

H-M Brown
Apr 25, 01:27pm

It would take a bit of coding, and probably the entire site shut down to implement it. But I wouldn't mind that hastle if it means that my 3500 to 4500 word posts will have page breaks like a book to provide a reading convience(SP?) for my readers.

For all our readers.

On top of that, readers can't use the phrase "I can't read 4500 word stories" as an excuse for not reading or comenting on our story posts.

How about it Ficionaut? It does help all of us out.

H-M Brown
Apr 25, 01:28pm

Oh yeah, and it allows us writers to succeed and fail properly by our storytelling and writing style and not by word counts.

eamon byrne
Apr 25, 05:16pm

Maybe posting anything over 1000 words, except rarely, and then maybe only 2000 words, is not a good idea at all for a site like this. Maybe the site is best thought of as a sampler site. Where we can browse around and get inspired by different WAYS of writing. A really long piece makes very big demands of a reader - and if the piece has two typos in the 2nd paragraph and the formatting looks like it's been done by a third grader, who would want to read all 6000 words unless one was a masochist. If one wants to showcase a really long pieces, it seems a better idea to post a 1000 words extract and link to the full text on a personal web page. The latter should be a given by all of us,in this day and age, surely.

James Lloyd Davis
Apr 25, 05:46pm

I would only use a site like this for short pieces, primarily experimental, to put ideas forward to see if they are viable. Call me old-fashioned or, simply, old, but I have difficulty reading any work of length on a computer screen. I believe, however, that the instant feedback a writer can obtain from a site like this is invaluable.

It is unfortunate that, perhaps as a corollary of such practices on-line, perhaps because the current generation of readers has developed a shorter attention span due to the influence of other media, many literary magazines seem to be posting smaller limits on length for short stories than ever before.

eamon byrne
Apr 25, 06:08pm

No mind is old, Jim, until it totally fails. But, really, is length the point? Isn't it the medium we're working with here? It's not a print medium. It's a web medium. Most everyone here is a good writer. The quality of writing is high. I find it puzzling, though, to see so few willing to make the effort to marry their texts to the demands of this medium. Some of the layouts, not to mention standards of proofing, are truly woeful. And being that the content is exactly the opposite, that makes for an unacceptable disconnect.

Linda Simoni-Wastila
Apr 25, 06:50pm

I like Eamon's idea of linking longer excerpts to another site or an author's website (or email, google groups, whatever). That said, I have and do use the pdf option -- gives me reading on the metro and airplanes(I've even kindled them).

I am wondering if folks want serious reading and/or crit on longer stories, even novels, then join a group dedicated to such. There already appear to be a few workshops for longer stories, novels, etc, though I haven't dug too deeply. Peace...

David Ackley
Apr 25, 07:35pm

I'm not sure what you mean, Eamon and James, by a "site like this." A number of literary magazines on line--Prick of the Spindle, Bull, Adirondack Review to name a few-- don't seem to have a problem publishing longer works, even up to novella length. If they have a readership for those, one would think that a site composed largely of writers could find room for them. Particularly since we have the option of PDF, which some of them lack, to mitigate the problems of reading on the screen.

H-M Brown
Apr 25, 07:44pm

Believe it or not there are people willing to read Serials or long prose on the web, its a matter of accomodation. Sites like Fictionaut while looking to present all forms of prose, is missing an opportunity to provide extensive tools, like page breaks, for long prose. Fictionaut does have PDF Format which provides not only page breaks but also page skipping to help readers, but not every visitor is aware of it unless we tell them.

And what is the point of Fictionaut if all it is a sampler site, when everyone's works is considerd "published" in the eyes of some Professional Editors that are both member or visitors? It's a disservice if Ficionaut only accommodates exclusively to poetry, flash fiction, and short prose while at the same time saying they are inclusive to all prose long or short.

I'm sorry but anyone who feels that a inclusive site like Fictionaut should only cater to short prose, poetry, and flash fiction for their own accomodation is not a writer at all. No one has the patent on writing or the industry. Fictionaut welcomes all forms of writing and that is the way it should be.

I don't see how reading a long piece on the internet is a such big demand for readers and there a masochist for reading such. I can sit here and say that writers like Stephen King, J.K. Rowling, and Stephanie Meyer, who wrote the most extreme and exhaustive length of novels, A.K.A Doorstoppers, makes a very big demand of readers and anyone who reads those books is a masochist. That makes no sense. If a reader can handle all of that from those writers, then that reader has no excuse to not read a equally long prose on the internet outside of the reasonable and rationale complaint of "It's bad storytelling and bad writing, that's why I don't read it."

No one came here to post 1000 word snippets of a bigger story, so people would go to another site to read the whole work. As a writer, doing something like that is an insult and a turn off to my readers. I'm basically saying to them, "Hey I hope you enjoyed reading 1000 words of chapter one. If you want to read the rest, click on the following; Link A.com to Link B.com to Link C.com then Click the drop down box to Link D.com". I know its an exageration(SP?), but we're presenting our own product that should be simple and easy for all readers, not a trial or quest.

It is not difficult to create a extensive page break option outside of PDF Format for long prose, to help accomodate the readers who want to read a long story.

We are after all trying to show and tell the readers here that we have something to share with them in our work and worth their time to converse about.

eamon byrne
Apr 25, 09:18pm

Hang on, I never said that the 'naut should only cater to short pieces. I was talking about OUR use of the site - which is obviously up to each individual. David, the sites you mention - do they display the text in a good manner? If so, that would be good. PDF's - yes, but usually they load up badly sized, and you have to zoom back etc to read them. OK, no big deal. And sizing can be set by the author so as to load the piece in the correct size. H-M, with page breaks I'm not aware of any method that exists for web pages to handle that intelligently without extensive javascript use. Page breaks are NOT a trivial thing to implement on the web.

David Ackley
Apr 25, 09:42pm

Prick of the Spindle does a pretty nice job. It's been a while since I looked at the others and I don't recall. To be frank, I've seen at least one whose name I won't mention that was like trying to read the list of side effects on a tv drug ad. But the ease and accessability of PDF right here is hard to beat.

H-M Brown
Apr 25, 11:11pm

Eamon, you obviously are not reading all of my posts because I never said implementing page breaks were easy. And I am not treating page breaks as some trivial issue. This is serious because there are readers out there who do want to read long prose on the internet, but have a hard time because of a lack of page breaks.

Eamon, everyone, I am addressing on the most common reason some readers claim they are turned off from reading long prose on the internet. All they ask for, outside of wanting a good story with good writing, is the ablility to read our work on the internet with ease. Without scrolling down one webpage full of text without page breaks.

I don't see how it is impossible to try, at least try, and put that page break programming into this site outside of the PDF Format. There are no excuses for not trying. For not putting in the effort.

There are non-Fictionaut members who do visit here and read our stories. You don't have to be a Fictionaut Member to read the majority of our stories. If the page breaks programming was put in, well, I don't know what will happen. But what I do know is that many long prose readers and writers would apprieciate that convenience.

Just put a Page Break Option Button right next to the PDF Format Button and Font Size Button on each story post page.

eamon byrne
Apr 26, 12:20am

Sorry E-M. Maybe I misread the last sentence in your last post. Look, I entirely agree with you about long submissions. I agree that scrolling is a turn off. I mean, I commonly lose my place when I do the scroll thing. It's even worse for my stuff because I like very long paragraphs. But the page break thing is extremely difficult to implement. Countless amateurs have tried to do it. They always end up with the last line an orphan. The page break looks like a paragraph break. It's just the state of the art as it exists. They can put a man on the moon. They can beam him back to your cell phone. Page breaks they can't do. And anyway, who's submitting pieces to the site in html anyway? Seems to me they come in in all sorts of kooky formats. But sure, I don't say we don't keep Carson in work here. Only please, Jurgen, when he gets the site tooting with all the whistles we want, don't sell it off to google.

James Lloyd Davis
Apr 26, 09:32am

Serialized stories ... now therein lies a fruitful idea.

Kevin Myrick
Apr 26, 10:21am

James -- I agree. Going to have to try that out...

H-M Brown
Apr 26, 08:28pm

Web Serial Novels have been going on for ages, check out Erica 'Irk' Bercegeay's The Peacock King. She's a Fictionaut member. Or head over to Web Fiction Guide and you'll find lots of links and reviews on many Web Serial Novels.

I agree about the orphan line situation, Arcana Magi has a handful in PDF Format. Very annoying. I believe font size adjustment would correct it, but I haven't seen that in PDF Format. It makes me wonder if Kindle, Nook, and ipad have that orphan line problem.

Mr. Carson start experimenting on page breaks. Fictionaut may end up with something revolutionary.

Kevin Myrick, if you're going to attempt a full time Web Serial Novel on Fictionaut, make sure to tell your readers to view it in PDF Format, so they won't get turned off by the 3500 word one page scroll.

Kevin Myrick
Apr 26, 09:24pm

H-M: My immediate thinking is a long work that is broken up into 1,000 word pieces... I know that kind of defeats the point of the argument made for longer pieces, but still has to be better than reading something that might end up as 20-30K words in one sitting.

H-M Brown
Apr 26, 11:05pm

That's why I encourage all my readers to take their time and not feel obligated to read 4500 words in one sitting. After all, no one really sat through Stephen King's It or The Stand through one sitting. :)

Savannah Schroll Guz
Apr 28, 08:43am

I do feel the movement towards ever shorter fiction is fueled by several variables. One of them is the speed with which we expect information to be transmitted...I admit I've gone a bit adhd because of the amount of information that appears in my world each day. I also wonder if readers lose their desire to concentrate on one concept or commune with one character for any length of time without a quick payoff. A new development, too, with so many literary journals appears to be stories under 1,000 words (I just checked out the Nanoism site, which is based on the 140-character Twitter format). Many online journals won't accept stories over 3,000, which I can understand and appreciate under the circumstances, but it makes me a little sad. A kind of deeper resonance and didactic power is possibly being lost. On one hand, there is greater gratification for the writer--I can crank out stories more quickly and get them out into the world if they are accepted, but are we compromising characterization and content in the process? Or is this new brevity truly the soul of wit? I still wonder where this trend and the habits that naturally develop from it will lead. Already my students don't focus on anything that's over four or five paragraphs...it's, at least in part, an unsettling trend.

H-M Brown
Apr 28, 10:31am

Technology is both a strength and a weakness. On one hand, out of strength, we writers have an internet with infinite amount of access of people to reach out to. It is also a big weakness, because our writings are stigmatized by the limitations of technology. Like 4500 words on one web page without a page break.

Truth is, there are tons of people out there that do want to read. Especially the youth. But not many of them are aware that there are good stories here on the internet due to the status quo believing that only published books are good. Fan fiction on the internet doesn't help either.

Yeah, there's Kindle, Nook, and ipad, but again its foreign technology for the elder readers who are do not engaged nor have extensive knowledge of new technology and computers. It also an expensive piece of tech asking people to buy the device, then buy stories as if it was a DVD player. In my opinion, why buy all of that when I can just buy a book off the shelf itself without the tech serving as the middle man?

I believe that a new generation of readers do want to read stories of any length, but I THINK most of us writers are writing in terms of our generational perspective rather than their generational perspective. It makes it even more difficult to connect with them because we are not their age. It could become polarizing for the youth if we try to connect with them on something we either do not understand or refuse to accept to understand.

It is best to write what we want and let the chips lie. But if we're going to reach out to the youth through our writings, then we have to abandon the old ways of thinking that we used to have. For example, we are not in the cold war anymore so don't write a story to the today's youth about 1980's politics. They don't care what happened before they were born. To them, it's in their history schoolbooks and not an experience like what we saw growing up or living in the 80's.

See.

Estelle Bruno
Apr 29, 09:48am

I don't mind how many words are used in a story, if it grabs my interest, fine, but sometimes as I go on and on, it becomes less interesting. There are points where some stories should have a period. end

Carol Reid
Apr 29, 10:17am

Using the PDF option definitely improves the onscreen readability of the longer pieces.

I'm glad that this topic of the "longer than flash" stories pops up from time to time, just as an encouragement to those who write more traditional length stories. I look forward to reading them.
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