Forum / derogatory comments

Susan Tepper
Jun 27, 12:10am

I was startled to see a derogatory comment on a poem today. Where do these people get off? It does this community no service to wise off about someone's work. If you don't like it, I say keep your thoughts to yourself.

Susan Tepper
Jun 27, 12:40am

btw, it was not on my poem. But I have experienced this sort of behavior in the past, and it's very harmful to both the writer and the community at large.

MaryAnne Kolton
Jun 27, 03:47am

Susan, is FN still by invitation only? If so perhaps we can find out exactly who is extending invitations to these kids who seem to have nothing better to do during their summer vacations.

Matt Potter
Jun 27, 05:17am

I still struggle with the idea that anyone would even bother doing such a thing ... surely they have better things to do?! It's summer over there, for God's sake!

Gill Hoffs
Jun 27, 09:38am

My sympathies to the poet - that's awful. Constructive criticism is all well and good, and I haven't read the comment or poem concerned, but that just sounds mean. Susan - would you pm me a link if you aren't too busy [though I guess you usually have a lot on - your name's everywhere!] so I can read the poem and send the poet a message of support? It's brave to post a piece of work. Credit where it's due.

Gill Hoffs
Jun 27, 09:38am

My sympathies to the poet - that's awful. Constructive criticism is all well and good, and I haven't read the comment or poem concerned, but that just sounds mean. Susan - would you pm me a link if you aren't too busy [though I guess you usually have a lot on - your name's everywhere!] so I can read the poem and send the poet a message of support? It's brave to post a piece of work. Credit where it's due.

James Lloyd Davis
Jun 27, 12:32pm

Been my experience that ... people who lack self confidence try to bolster their self-image by deriding others. Doing so presumes the idea that the one who makes derogatory remarks has the high position from which to drop insults.

The fact is that an insult is an ugly and thoroughly unattractive comment, something that adds nothing to universally perceived image of the person who uses it and, in fact, falls easily back on its originator.

I've thought it quite fortunate that Fictionaut is exceptionally and quite uniquely free, for the most part, from the kind of immaturity that spawns insulting comments, but I suppose the idea of perfection presumes something that a broad and diverse membership will never be able to deliver.

It's good that the person who did this has the opportunity to come here and see the negative impact he or she has spawned, though I doubt it would make a difference. Anyone who would post an insult like that obviously has not participated here often or consistently enough to know the ground rules, and may not have the good sense or the quality of character it would take to make an apology.

I say 'may not...' It would be nice to be wrong about that.

Sam Rasnake
Jun 27, 01:26pm

I understand the frustration, Susan, but everyone doesn't get the depth of poetry. Buson, for example, is a far more complex writer than, say, James Joyce. It's much easier for Joyce to do what he did, than for Buson to do what he did. Joyce is an easier read than Buson as well. And I need to add that Joyce is absolutely one of my favorite writers of fiction. But, it's easier for Joyce to write a great novel than it is for Buson to write a great haiku. Joyce is, in fact, a much better fiction writer than he is a poet. It’s only my opinion, but it’s one that's valid for me ... and I’m hearing the rumblings in the FN forest as I write these words.

How long it takes someone to write a piece – poetry or prose – should have nothing to do with whether or not it’s a good or lasting work.

In terms of how a reading public takes a piece of writing is always a mystery. We’re moved or not moved by phrasings, imagery, tone, theme - also aspects we can't nail down. Everybody comes to a piece - prose or poetry - for different reasons and comes away with something different. We live in a world that, for the most part, no longer wants to spend time with things. We want it now - We don't want to ponder over anything. We want everything to conform to our views and tastes.

For me to be the best reader I can be, I search – all writing – for a nugget, a phrase, an image that I can hold on to. It opens the work for me in a new way. I’m a disciple of William Blake in that regard. There’s always a golden thread, and I look for it. But everyone doesn’t do this.

The poem in question – and it doesn’t really matter to me if the writer of the piece is or is not informed about the style or tradition ... or, for that matter, if the reader knows ... the poem is in fact part of a long literary tradition – love poems of the Heian court, 9th century, Japan. I take the piece in the way it was meant to be – not by the writer, but by the work itself - and let it be itself. I think it’s a good poem - one that has reached its finest form and most likely can't be improved any longer. And that’s difficult to achieve. Some readers don’t understand or like poetry, and probably should stay clear.

Every literary genre has a limited set of tools – and I also realize we think those tools are unlimited, but they’re not. We write – and read – in a finite world. For example, there are only seven stories that can be told. I know – we think there are more, but that’s not the case. The trick is - find a new way to say the same thing. That's the hard part.

Probably, the reader of the poem in question didn’t like the style or didn’t understand the style, didn’t’ like poetry - but decided to wade in all the same. Maybe the reader should have moved on to something else. If I don’t connect with a work – for good or bad – or don’t connect with the writer, I don’t stop. I move on. I connected with this poem – very much so – and stopped in for a word or two.

Ramon Collins
Jun 27, 11:58pm

"It is much easier to be critical than to be correct." -- Benjamin Disraeli

MaryAnne Kolton
Jun 28, 03:19am

". . .And don't criticize what you can't understand. . .
Bob Dylan

W.F. Lantry
Jun 28, 06:34pm

Sam,

I agree with everything you say. Even the stuff about Joyce. But I have a slightly different take.

This person, who said something bad? I view him or her as a potential reader. After all, he could be off posting on TMZ, or she could be making comments at a NASCAR forum. But no, the action took place here, and we all get our readers the old-fashioned way... that is, one at a time. Maybe this one needs to be more civilized, or needs to learn more about the genre in question... but we shouldn't banish or ostracize someone just entering the field.

On the other hand, the thing that's wonderful about this field is how supportive this particular community is. But I don't think that's likely to change, as long as it stays invitation only, and as long as we use our real names. If membership ever gets opened up, this kind of thing will become the norm, and all the songbirds (me included) will need to find a new home...

Thanks,

Bill

Sam Rasnake
Jun 28, 07:04pm

You're right, Bill. Near the end of my comment when I wrote that the reader should "have moved on to something else" - I didn't mean leave FN. I think the reader should have moved on to another story or poem - but certainly should keep reading. We all need to do that.

Jim V
Jun 28, 07:32pm

Writing of any kind is not for the feint of heart. If criticism overwhelms you, probably best to find another field.

Keeping in mind I do not know the inciting poem, poet, or incident described here, I think part of poetry's problem isn't that it's difficult but that it's intentionally, and often falsely, difficult. If the subject, theme, and language require difficulty, that's one thing, but to shoot for difficulty as a way of separating your poems from prose or making yourself appear more intelligent than you are is another. Simon Perchik admits to wanting to "confound the reader"-- and does a mighty fine job of it. Well, if you intentionally set out to stump the reader, you shouldn't be surprised (or insulted) when the reader says he's stumped. After all, you accomplished exactly what you set out to do.

Susan Tepper
Jun 28, 07:50pm

Bill, how do we know this guy is "someone just entering the field?" He could be a seasoned writer. He hides behind a fake name then goes on the attack. You have something lousy to say, then say it and take the consequences. But it's always the ones using the fake names who seem to start up. Ugh. I wish these people would find a new blood sport.

MaryAnne Kolton
Jun 28, 08:59pm

Just an observation. Much of the inappropriate criticism here seems to come from those who choose not to reveal their faces, place of residence, or any identifying information. This says a great deal about cowardice. . .

W.F. Lantry
Jun 28, 09:28pm

Susan,

I'm just hoping, as always, for the best case. I don't want to think that someone who's actually a writer would be doing this stuff.

I didn't realize people would, or could, use false names here. That's always a recipe for disaster. We should own our own words, and, by extension, own up to them.

Thanks,

Bill

Joani Reese
Jun 28, 09:38pm

I wondered how a person could become a member under false pretenses here, Bill, and realized you just have to invite yourself under another guise. Kind of wormy and cowardly, but it's as easy as that.

MaryAnne Kolton
Jun 29, 04:25am

I sent the offender a private message and asked him if before he assumes any more talent limitations based on time, he would sit down at his computer and write a 1000 word story about something he really cares about in a manner that makes us all care about it too. Haven't seen it yet. . .

Personally, I think these are kids with nothing better to do. And we are not going to change them. Better to ignore them, support the person who's on the receiving end of their ignorance and move on. I'm just sayin'.

Jim V
Jun 29, 03:35pm

Here's is my question. What is more damaging to a community? Someone putting a brusk, thoughtless remark on a poem, one that can be removed by the author at any time? Or someone starting a "hit" thread, where everyone is invited to join in on beating up the guy who stepped out of line?

I don't think I've ever said one negative thing to anyone here, but I'm seriously thinking about giving up Fictionaut anyway. If I have to run my comments through some self-appointed moderator, or face public ridicule in the forum, I'd rather not.

Susan Tepper
Jun 29, 04:08pm

Jim Valvis, you must do as you see fit. I will do as I see fit. The poet who was maligned was not handed "a brusk remark", but rather a nasty vicious one that questioned the veracity of the writing and the poem.

But lets get down to tacks here. You and I know what's really behind your posting here. It's because I recently de-friended you on fb, because of the incredibly rude comment that was made to me by an idiot (not you) on a posting of yours.

However-- you did not come to my defense when the idiot made some very personal and inappropriate remarks to me and I quote:
"Susan you must be on your period."

Yes, that was said to me on Jim Valvis fb posting. WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND TALKS THIS WAY???

And no one on that posting came to my defense publicly. No one told the idiot he was out of line. No one but me.

So don't pull your righteous crap on me, Jim Valvis. OK?

Susan Tepper
Jun 29, 04:24pm

ps-- you have started a "hit" thread on me, Jim Valvis. You made me wrong because I defended a poet's right to publish what they wanted without fear of condemnation.
You are the Hit Man here.

Susan Tepper
Jun 29, 04:32pm

pps-- and by the way, a "hit post" names someone. No one has been named.
What has been done here is to address an important issue to any online writing community: How much is too much? What is an appropriate comment on someone's work and what is merely an attack?
An attack serves no good purpose.
And we are all on this site for good purpose. Or, at least we're suppossed to be.

Jim V
Jun 29, 04:36pm

You want to get down to tacks? Okay...

It is not my job to defend you, Susan. Here, or anywhere else. I said nothing rude to you-- so your defriending me was exactly the kind of level-headed, reasonable action you're quickly becoming known for. The way I see it, which you would have read if you hadn't been so hot-headed and defriended me, is that if you're going to pick fights with someone (and you did pick the fight, telling him he's "less than an intelligent thinker" and saying he should find another line of work besides writing before he defended *himself* with the aforemention rudeness), you're going to have to defend yourself. And you did. By calling him "a pathetic little man."

Who in their right mind talks that way?

So even if it was my job, which it is not, why should I defend you?

Nevertheless, whatever our past, my point stands. I didn't realize the poet in question was your mother. It makes your temper regarding the issue more understandable, but not any more justified in moving it out of its proper place and onto here. Your attack on me, rather than my point, is typical of what many people have come to expect from you.

I've had friends write me and tell me the nasty things you say to them, former or even present friends of yours. They warned me to watch my ass, and I didn't believe them that you were as nasty as they made out.

Well, I guess this has shown me.

Susan Tepper
Jun 29, 04:51pm

No, you didn't have to defend me on your facebook posting.
But a true friend would have. A "gentleman" would have. You are the guy who was forever "loving me" here, "hugs and kisses to Susan".. Ha!

As for what I said about the "idiot"-- he had stalked me for several weeks on fb! Posting garbage remarks on everything I posted to!

You writing here that people don't like me, well, lets hear it:

Who doesn't like me? Who have I offended?

The dozens of writers I've published in the 2 lit mags I edit?
The writers I have interviewed in the chat?
The writers I have reviewed in magazines?
The writers I have interviewed in many mags both print and online?
The writers I have hosted in my KGB series?

Yeah, Jim Valvis, I'm a pretty bad person.
Let's hear about what you have done to help the literary community.

Zilch. You have done zilch to help other writers.

In fact, in that fb posting, you publicly stated that you don't buy small press books because they stink (or some other expletive).

I rest my case.

MaryAnne Kolton
Jun 29, 04:54pm

Wow! this seems to have really gotten out of control. My thoughts, my opinions:

James,
Your resposes are made on a poem and a rude response you did not even take the time
to read. Perhaps your opinions would be different had you taken the time to do so. The comments about Estelle's poem were not made in a thoughtful, helpful way but were rather hateful. Susan, having been the victim of this sort of hit & run previously, became angry and defensive about the rude comments and your remarks, which is her right.

Some of us,(it only seems to happen to women, here,) especially those who have been victimized in the past in any way, automatically become frightened and defensive when faced with questionable remarks from a
stranger.

As far as threatening to leave FN, either leave or don't. Threatening does nothing to strengthen your position. I for one would miss the opportunity to read your wonderful work, if you do choose to leave. Your decision, tho. No one is censoring anyone yet.

Susan, You know I care for you a great deal, as much as anyone can care for a virtual friend. I do understand, based on past experience, that you were appalled and frightened by what was an ignorant attack on Estelle's work. I agree we need to support her.

However, think about how she must be feeling right now. Something she wrote, has unintentionally caused great disharmony amongst friends.

We are all intelligent, caring, talented adults here. This needs to stop here and now.

"Personally, I think these are kids with nothing better to do. And we are not going to change them. Better to ignore them, support the person who's on the receiving end of their ignorance and move on."

This has happened before as I understand and it will no doubt happen again. But it need not get to this point.

Let's move on people.
Let's spend our valuable time doing what we came here to do. Share our work, our comments, and our virtual love for each other.

James Robison
Jun 29, 05:23pm

Susan,

If people cannot express derogatory, negative and even hostile opinions on this site, it's not a literary forum, it's useless. Not everything written here is good and just as in a graduate workshop, all criticism should be welcome.

Jim

Susan Gibb
Jun 29, 05:24pm

Wow. Just got caught up on this, read through the thread and thankfully, through MaryAnne, located the post and the comment.

Yes, it was a very rude comment and I think your addressing it here, Susan, was perfectly fine to do. We're flaky writers but we do stick together and defend our own when attacked, or we should.

One thing above what's been said--and MaryAnne really did a beautiful job in her last comment of assessing the situation and adding a calming voice--is that much of the escalation here could possibly have been avoided if the comment had been quoted here, thus avoiding the whole conflict of freedom of speech vs. good manners. Now that I've seen for myself what caused Susan to become upset--and have gone to locate the commenter to see where he's coming from in his head--I well understand that this comes from a strange place, and not someone who honestly doesn't "get" poetry and became frustrated.

Unfortunately, we'll likely always have to deal with this type of thing and I'm glad to see those who will fight for their friends over rights to make rude remarks.

Jim V
Jun 29, 05:25pm

That's your case? You edit lit mags, interview people, so you can talk trash to and about whomever you want?

(Other people will be interested to know that, according to Susan Tepper, unless you're editing lit zines and interviewing people, you've done "nothing" for other writers and your opinion has much less worth.)

Let's be clear, though. The editing, interviewing, etc., serves a duel purpose. Maybe there is some interest in the other writer, but there is also a self-serving aspect to it, which sees your chances for tit for tat publication go up, and so on.

For instance, if you get into such an argument, you can remind everyone all the wonderful things you've done for everyone. It won't make your points any more valid, but at least you can guilt (or intimidate) people onto your side.

I've never needed to do that, since I'm A) a nice guy and B) a good writer. Nevertheless, I edited my own lit zine before you even thought of writing your first poem, guest edited others, interviewed writers, and promoted and encouraged others many, many times, including you, as you point out. I'm also a patron of many journals, a subscriber to still more. Finally, I was president of a writer's group for a decade and workshopped more manuscripts than you will ever see, for nothing. I still, from time to time, help people edit their poems and stories when they send them to me. So that's a whole lot of zilch.

As for who said what-- that's between me and them. They know who they are, and, I have a feeling, so do you.

I never said anything about not ever buying small press books. I simply said that many of them are not very good, and so I don't buy them. I'll buy a book that's good by an author that's good. Your idea was that every book is good, and that we have some obligation to support everything and everyone, which is ridiculous.

Finally, as for not naming the guy who wrote the admittedly brusk comment on your mother's poem, well, when I finally looked for it, it took me 3 minutes to find the thread and I knew who it was. And since others felt comfortable asking you for the link to the poem, it hardly matters if you put out the name, does it? Clearly this was a lynching thread.

Bah. I've said enough. Keep burning your bridges, Susan. See where it gets you.

Susan Gibb
Jun 29, 05:36pm

Nothing to see here folks, go home. But I did mess up when I said "it comes from a strange place" because I inadvertently clicked his "favorites" links instead of his "story" links and came up with other writers so I thought something fishy was going on. My bad. I still don't know what precipitated the comment and while I defend his right to say what he wants (or anyone for that matter) I still considered it rude.

Meg Tuite
Jun 29, 05:41pm

Susan, I'm equally appalled at the insensitivity of these folk out to get a rise
Out of everyone without any idea what they're reading!!! I'm very sad about
This rift with you and Jim!!! Jim, I have only had support from Susan
As well as you on FB and I believe that's what it's all about!!!
I've seen many people use FB for their insecurities and it has never
Been Susan!!! But I do know others and I tend to stay clear of them!!!
Why have a community of writers if not to support each other?
If we don't like what someone's written we should just move on to
Something we do like! Why get swamped in the negative??
Never does anyone any good!! We're all writers and all putting our
Work out there, hopefully for constructive criticism!!! Isn't that basic
Wkshopping 101??? I agree with MaryAnne. Enough of the
Negativity!!!! Meg Tuite

Susan Tepper
Jun 29, 05:44pm

Jim Valvis-- I only listed the things I do for other writers, because you essentially called me a horrible person who must be watched out for! Yes, I'm very scary!

I could be spending that time purely on my own writing, as you do!

That was my purpose for stating what I do for the community.

You attacked me and I defended myself.
You are burning bridges, not I.

You who stated he would not buy any small press books because the writing in them is no good.

Who would state such a thing? I think you are to be feared. That's a bridge burner if ever there was one.

Foster Trecost
Jun 29, 05:45pm

Fictionaut has its own way of separating the pieces posted here. Negative comments in a story thread will have the opposite effect, as the formula that propels certain stories to the top takes into consideration number of reads, comments and faves (and maybe days on the board?) – the formula makes no distinction between positive and negative comments. So the best course of action would be to say nothing in public and send the writer an email addressing the concerns – this is what I’ve done in the past, and some writers in this thread have been recipients. They continue to leave nice comments on my stories, so I believe they weren’t offended, but I’m sure this has a lot to do with the way I said it, not what I said.

Most writers will claim to welcome criticism, but there’s a place for it. There’s also a right and wrong way to do it. Fos.

Jim V
Jun 29, 05:47pm

It's fine, Meg, to support your fellow writers. As you know, I do it all the time. And it's fine to call out someone for an insensitive remark-- on the thread. My question is-- where do you stop with it? First you attack him in the forum, then in private emails, then on your blog, then maybe you all start blacklisting him from journals.

When does the punishment become worse than the crime?

Jim V
Jun 29, 05:59pm

Your whole argument here, Susan, is ad hominem. I get it. You don't like me.

But please stop saying I said things I never said. I never said I wouldn't buy a small press book. In fact, the irony here is that the thread was my passionate plea for people to support the small press. Which I do regularly. That thread still exists, if anyone's interested in going to look at it, on my FB page. It was the thread about Chiron folding.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=217953758227547&id=100000154207996#!/permalink.php?story_fbid=217953758227547&id=100000154207996

You need to be my FB friend to read it, but if you are, please judge for yourself.

Susan Tepper
Jun 29, 06:06pm

Actually, I liked you very much Jim Valvis, until you sat by benignly while the idiot on fb discussed my "period."

Jim V
Jun 29, 06:18pm

Here's the money part. Look to see where I said I would never buy a small press book.

I see a difference between book publishing and magazine publishing. A magazine is selling the potential to be part of the magazine. A book is not. In other words, a person can hope to get into [name of magazine], he cannot hope to get into a[n author's] book. Hence, in general, magazines sell better than books-- and have a built-in circulation that books do not, so they are vital for poets trying to build a following. This means that magazines are of communal importance and must be supported by the poetry community if we are to have a future. While individual books of poetry are of individual importance, and need not be. The problem I see is there are too many poor writers with terrible chaps/books. In fact, they often use books as an end around from having to publish in the journals, which they cannot do. They have three poems in journals that accept 25+% and already they're putting together a fricken manuscript. So they get some publisher to run their books and start bragging about having 8 books out, all of which nobody outside their mothers wants to read. Or maybe they become obnoxious salesmen (buy my book, buy my book!), who busy themselves selling their crappy books (buy my book, buy my book!), and when people buy them it confirms what they always thought about poetry, that it's awful and they wasted their money. (In a mag, it's diferent, if one poet fails you, you just skip ahead to the next. Mags very rarely are all bad, which is common in poetry books.) Tim's last statement is right. It's ego driven, but not just publishing in zines, but also having a book, which also validates having spent $50K on an MFA. But the real action, the real testing ground is in the literary journals. If you can't publish there and build a following and create poems that can survive without the author pushing them, pushing them, then those "books" don't deserve to be made-- and if the publisher takes a loss on it, then too bad for the publisher. The publisher should be more careful about who and what he's publishing-- and stop clogging the system with crap nobody cares to read. After all, does anyone think that Billy Collins needs to buy his own books? Sherman Alexie? Dorianne Laux? Has Shakespeare been performing his poems at readings the last 400 years to keep his publishers in business? For twenty years, with some breaks, I've been writing strong verse. I have a solid following, as far as poets go. I'm probably the most widely published poet in America without so much as a single chapbook to his credit. Why? Because I never felt the need to bolster my ego by putting out a book no one wanted to read or buy-- and I want to spend my time writing, not hustling my books like some dealer on a street corner. For the first time, this Sep, I'll put out a collection, but even that fell into my lap and even still I wonder the wisdom of it. I warned Kevin, my publisher, he may take a bath on the thing. He doesn't think he will. Okay. But if he does, it's on him, not me, and I don't think me buying a few extra copies will make a difference, but even if it did I feel no obligation. I'll do some stuff to promote the book, while not interfering with my writing, and that's it, though I think the best publicity is always, ALWAYS, writing killer poems. Listen, [the guy Susan was aruing with]'s brusk sometimes but here I think he's right, if I wanted to incur the risk of publishing, I could self-publish. If all the risk will fall on me, all the profits might as well also. Otherwise, what are you giving the rights to your poems for? Some brand like a label on your jeans? Hardly seems worth it. Frankly, if I'm going to buy a bunch of my books and sit here looking at them, I'd rather not bother and continue writing novels that might see a real profit. Well, hell, this is one serious block of text. Sorry about not commenting earlier. I was ill, still am. If I die, please remember I loved everyone.

___

Somebody needs to point out to me where I ever said I would not buy a small press book. In fact, by naming a writer like Sherman Alexie, whose publisher is the small press Hanging Loose, I'm saying that I would.

I was just saying that publishers need to be more discerning about who they publish-- or they risk financial difficulties.

Hardly as Susan describes it. Of course, when you're hot under the collar, it's possible to misread something.

And here we are.

Susan, if you liked me, then why not talk to me-- even privately-- about the problem? As I said, I was ill. Friends don't dump friends without a word-- or even a chance to explain themselves.

You overreacted.

Nevertheless, I'm sorry that guy dumped on you mom. He was out of line. Especially since the poem was wonderful.

Still, it's his right to be wrong.

Susan Tepper
Jun 29, 06:23pm

It is not his "right" to be mean. And he is an estabished writer, and I have spoken privately to him.

Jim V
Jun 29, 06:33pm

Well, Susan, you're not going to turn the world into Romper Room. I try to practice civility also, but not everyone does, and not everyone who's impolitic is wrong. The only way you can force people into being "nice" is to make them shut up, agree with everyone else, or say nothing at all negative.

But this isn't something even you practice-- as this thread shows.

Anyway, at least you know it wasn't me who made the comment. I don't play that kind of garbage. I agree that those who hide behind false names to do their trash talking are pretty weak.

W.F. Lantry
Jun 29, 07:04pm

James,

Did you ever watch Anchorman? There's a relevant quote in it. Something along the lines of "Maybe you should just not talk for a little while."

Reputations take years to build, and can be destroyed in a single day. Usually, that happens to people who think they're right, who believe they're nice guys and good writers. One of the big clues is they start getting awfully long winded.

Jim Robison's right, if we're always merely kind and polite we'll never get anywhere. But we've all been in workshops that have turned sour, because of someone who's certain of himself, and goes on and on about it.

Peace,

Bill

Susan Tepper
Jun 29, 07:04pm

Jim, I would never expect you to make such a comment on someone's work. I'm sorry you jumped in to this post because it opened a huge can of worms. I will always believe it's important to act decently toward people's work. It's easy to get in "the mode" and think to yourself that something is total crap. Then we find out some truth behind it, we learn something about the writer. I learned this as a writing teacher. People have their miseries. Often they try writing them out. That happens here too. Thats why I say: if you don't like it, just bypass it. Why hurt someone who might be at the end of their string? I know you believe that, too, because you always post very sensitively.
I took issue with the fb thread, because it was all about the small presses collapsing. And if people don't take out a subscription here and there, or buy a book, the presses will all eventually go out. Small press print will cease to exist. And for many of us writers, it will be the end of our dream.

Jim V
Jun 29, 07:52pm

Bill, my "reputation" as a writer will not be determined here or with you or with Fictionaut. I see no reason why I should think myself anything but a nice guy, and writers who aren't good don't land the kind of credits I have. Should I say I'm not a good writer? Are you saying I'm not? I'm not claiming any title that the majority of people would not grant me.

Susan, writing is a commodity like anything else, and its audience has to be earned to some degree. No?

Some stuff is not good. I know, because I've written some of it. Why deny this in the general? (There are many reasons why such a label should be avoided in the specific.) We do nobody any favors by allowing bad writing to flourish. It encourages nobody to get better, and it takes attention and funds away from those who deserve it more.

Your dream shouldn't depend on making the presses sink down to a debased level. It should depend on you raising the level of your skill to where it should be. (The "you" here is the universal you, not the specific.)

In other words, if I support everyone, I cheat the people who tried harder. Hardly fair.

And that's coming from someone who spent his entire writing life in the small press.

I agree, personally, that nobody should be discouraged-- but that is not the same thing as everybody should be encouraged and be given equal attention.

That said, Flannery O'Connor was asked if she thought university programs discouraged too many writers and she replied they don't discourage enough of them. :)

Listen, a lot of emotions get piled into this writing thing. But in the end, it's not therapy anymore once you put it in the public arena. Readers and critics can't be responsible for the poet's mental stability, artistic sticktoitiveness, or financial well being. I take it on faith that most people, especially most writers, are good people. But the work is what matters. It either is good or it is not-- and sometimes the worst people are good writers, and the best people aren't. Sad, but true.

The good news is that even a bad writer can get better.

Christopher Allen
Jun 29, 08:52pm

I can't find the comment that started this. I've read the thread, but I don't feel I understand the problem. Everyone: I'm sorry this happened.

W.F. Lantry
Jun 29, 08:57pm

And now you're cursing *me*, in a long message, and claiming titles? Who's your *next* target?

Seriously, it may be time to just chill, for at least a little while. It might be better for all concerned...

Thanks,

Bill

Susan Tepper
Jun 29, 09:02pm

Yeah, it's a shame is right, Chris.
My last post was intended for Jim Valvis (not Robison)--
JV: I didn't say this was "therapy." Just that people have problems and don't need to be maligned on this site. You mentioned you are ill right now. I'm sure it would not boost your immune system to read a crap remark on some poem you lovingly wrote. And the fact that one person would take it upon themself to write something obnoxious, well, is rather like playing God, wouldn't you say?

I don't get that arbitrary cruelty stuff.
I don't get it and never will.

JV: I hope you feel better soon and that is truth.

Beate Sigriddaughter
Jun 29, 09:03pm

I'd have to say, if someone is so insecure that he must make derogatory remarks that are meaningless (I see absolutely nothing constructive in the comment), then he would be better off spending his time in constructive therapy to find something that would move him, rather than wasting his precious time commenting on things that do not move him.
Then again, there's always Rilke's scary observation that "perhaps everything terrible is, in its deepest being, something helpless that wants help from us."
Be that as it may, if that comment had landed on a piece of mine, I would have cried with the sheer unexpectedness and viciousness of the attack (I hope the author of the poem didn't). Is that the point of literature, to weaken each other? To cut each other down? Not in my book. We have war for that--though I don't approve of war either.
My point is, if you can't create, don't destroy other people's stuff; and if you can create, then go do that, rather than putting others down in some weird hope that that would debilitate the competition and you could get ahead that way. Ahead of what?

Susan Tepper
Jun 29, 09:08pm

Bill Lantry, we have met in real-time, and talked, and hung out. I love you & Kate and your son to pieces. Maybe we all need to have a f'naut convention, meet in real-time, hear the voices, see the faces, listen to the stories. Then we could all be real friends and act accordingly.

Susan Tepper
Jun 29, 09:10pm

Beate, thank you.

Beate Sigriddaughter
Jun 29, 09:14pm

Bummer, I apparently just lost a brilliant commentary to this thread here, including quoting Rilke, "perhaps everything terrible is, in its deepest being, something helpless that wants help from us."
Yup, it's gone.
To summarize: If you can't create, then don't try to get ahead (ahead of what, anyways?) by putting other people down. It you can create, then create! instead of wasting your precious time commenting on stuff that doesn't move you.
Had I received that comment on my work, I would have cried (I hope the author didn't) and been debilitated for some time. What is the point of that? Don't tell me the commentator didn't know the viciousness and unexpectedness of his attack. Cluelessness is no defense. If you're clueless, then get a clue.

Jim V
Jun 29, 09:24pm

Bill, I cursed you? Where? Does that even make sense?

Jim V
Jun 29, 09:25pm

If someone talks to me, there's a very good chance they might be my next "target" when I answer them.

Susan Tepper
Jun 29, 09:36pm

JV: I just wrote you that I hope you feel better. Did you notice that someone cares how you feel? Please notice. It's important. It's at the crux of this whole discussion. Feelings. People's feelings.

Jim V
Jun 29, 09:48pm

Susan, I don't "lovingly" write anything. I write. That's all. People can like it or not. I realize this sounds very distant, but it's a philosophy anyone must have in order to make it as a writer. I cannot tell you how many times people have attacked my writing-- and in far nastier terms than was done here. I've been doing this over two decades, so you can imagine.

Now, as you know, I never defended being a jerk. I'm only saying that the argument was local and should have stayed local-- that by bringing it over here you created a new problem, a new issue. But I think it's important that people learn how to deal with jerks. It's not that big a deal, Susan. (Although, I have to admit, when I found out it was your mom he was doing it to, well, that made it a lot more understandable. You'll have to excuse my ignorance on that score.) Anyway, it's some joker on a literature forum, just like it was some guy on my FB page. You gave him more power than he has. He's not anybody you should have given a second thought to, certainly not a third or fourth thought. If you're going to get riled up when people say rude things about your writing, Susan, or worse, other people's writing, which will happen all the time, it's very possible you'll drive yourself bananas in short order and decide this whole writing thing is terrible and not worth the effort.

And I would find that a shame.

Jim V
Jun 29, 09:51pm

I noticed the well wishing. Thanks. I'm better now.

W.F. Lantry
Jun 29, 09:56pm

Jim, seriously, I think you'd be surprised how many people read this. Not just here, but an awful lot of screen-scraping goes on, and your words can end up on servers all over the world, with your name attached.

So it wouldn't do any good to delete what you wrote above, even if you could. It's likely already gone, and that damage is done. But at least you can keep it from continuing to get worse. You may thank yourself in the morning.

Peace,

Bill

Jim V
Jun 29, 10:03pm

I didn't say anything here, Bill, I'm the least bit ashamed of. So what exactly do you think I should be hiding from the world?

Oh, and what exactly was the curse I supposedly laid on you?

Susan Tepper
Jun 29, 10:16pm

JV: I give up. You are the one who seriously escalated this, which is clear if you will read the whole post. I merely stated my distaste for mean comments.

Now I hate to give you the bad news:
Simon Perchik has been coined by Library Journal as the most widely published poet in America. They put that statement in print.

Simon has published 17 books and over 6000 poems to date and he's still going strong at 88.
He never writes a mean thing about any poet. He's been my mentor for 14 years.
I am blessed to have him.

Jim V
Jun 29, 10:25pm

He's a very talented poet-- without a doubt. But that doesn't mean I'll agree about everything he says.

Argument from authority fallacy.

I give up too, especially since neither you nor Bill will answer a question or address anything I said, but quickly change the subject, and even when I try to be nice, the bile still surfaces.

Have a nice day/life.

Ramon Collins
Jun 29, 10:55pm

Thanks, Susan, for making a statement writers can think about and discuss as adults. I've been in the creative field for a long time; if you put your name on ideas you're going to receive some praise and some cheap shots. The majority of the time you won't hear anything. As I see it, Fictionaught is primarily a fiction showcase, although there are Fn groups for reviewing, critiquing and otherwise offering a "fresh eye".

We're seeing the Electronic Generation trying to bud and bloom. Computer games, fantasy teams, chat rooms and pornography can get boring for young people. Bored kids tend to drop in on creative adult sites and post twisted babble as they do when texting or sexting each other."Twiddling one's thumbs" used to mean wasting time, today it's a way of communicating.

Thank the Great Buddha mature individuals, like Susan, have the time and interest to keep a horny hand on Fictionaught's tiller as it drifts seeking shelter from the storm.

Ramon Collins
Jun 29, 10:58pm

Thanks, Susan, for making a statement writers can think about and discuss as adults. I've been in the creative field for a long time; if you put your name on ideas you're going to receive some praise and some cheap shots. The majority of the time you won't hear anything. As I see it, Fictionaught is primarily a fiction showcase, although there are Fn groups for reviewing, critiquing and otherwise offering a "fresh eye".

We're seeing the Electronic Generation trying to bud and bloom. Computer games, fantasy teams, chat rooms and pornography can get boring for young people. Bored kids tend to drop in on creative adult sites and post twisted babble as they do when texting or sexting each other."Twiddling one's thumbs" used to mean wasting time, today it's a way of communicating.

Thank the Great Buddha mature individuals, like Susan, have the time and interest to keep a horny hand on Fictionaught's tiller as it drifts seeking shelter from the storm.

J. Mykell Collinz
Jun 29, 11:40pm

Yes, Susan, I agree in principle with your opening remark: "It does this community no service to wise off about someone's work. If you don't like it, I say keep your thoughts to yourself."

Or tactfully offer a constructive suggestion.

I don't mind wise cracks about my own writing, however. In fact, I almost seem to be begging for it sometimes, I write so badly.

"The good news is that even a bad writer can get better." JV said that and I'm delighted to hear it.

MaryAnne Kolton wrote: "Just an observation. Much of the inappropriate criticism here seems to come from those who choose not to reveal their faces, place of residence, or any identifying information. This says a great deal about cowardice. . . "

As to the picture on my wall, no, it's not me. I thinks it's Franz Listz. I've been informed by a fellow fictionaut, it also appeared on the removable cover of his copy of 'The Picture of Dorian Gray.'

Plus, my name is John Michael Collins, not J. Mykell Collinz. I'm working on getting some pictures digitized and I'll undate my wall with more personal information as time permits. I'm from Detroit, I've managed to survive for seventy three years, and I'm looking forward to more, while growing as a writer. That's about it. I'll let my writing speak for itself. Go ahead and laugh. I'll cry if I want to.

MaryAnne Kolton
Jun 30, 12:09am

Dear J. Mykell Collinz, I sincerely apologize if I in any way impuned your reputation. Or hurt your feelings for that matter. I take back what I said about the faces and pictures I love the creativity of some of the writers' depictions of themselves. However, I do believe we should all be using our real names, or at least I thought so until recently. I will in future be known here as Meg Tuite. . .

Bill Yarrow
Jun 30, 12:41am

This series of exchanges, if read objectively, is one of the best stories on Fictionaut.
I'm on the edge of my chair waiting for the next installment!
*

Susan Tepper
Jun 30, 12:51am

ding!

J. Mykell Collinz
Jun 30, 01:43am

Impuned my reputation? That would be hard to do. Hurt my feelings? No. As I said in a message to you: I don't think your remark requires an apology, not to me, anyway. I'm sorry for giving you that impression. I've been wanting to put a real picture out there because I know I look too phoney without one. I'm just not a computer person. Plus, I'm lazy. But I do like to read and write when I can free myself from a busy schedule.

MaryAnne Kolton
Jun 30, 05:46am

Bill can't wait for our October assignation in Chicago. . .love a man with an astute sense of humor. Some day we'll all look back at this thread and have a good laugh. . .or not.

Matt Potter
Jun 30, 05:52am

I still find it incredible that anyone would even bother making derogatory comments on a website, for God's sake, quite beyond the fact that they might or might not have been true! Get a life! This is not the complete world people ... go out there and smell the roses or the horseshit or something!

Beate Sigriddaughter
Jun 30, 04:32pm

Matt, there's a piece of writing waiting: "on a trapeze between the roses and the horseshit...."

Larry Strattner
Jul 01, 04:55am

Interesting discussion.

Taking it above the personal level it’s no doubt a person who comments on another’s looks, attire or art should be polite no matter what. Some websites will summarily block you at the first sign of pugnaciousness.

I like fictionaut because I’m a prima donna and if two or three people like something I write it helps my mood.

I go to a tough writer’s critique group once per week. I am prepared for the drubbing I get. If I got a drubbing at fictionaut it would surprise me but I’d get over it. I’m a writer after all. I get drubbed all the time.

I never got the feeling any of the hotshot writers who visit fictionaut are looking for a critique. Nor are the ones who get three hundred reads and one hundred favs – but then that’s an unwritten rule. fictionaut could consider a posting board where writers specifically ask for a critique. Then the written rule would be – none of that on the open posts. Only gushing, simpering and preening.

I try to be a manners guy. I fear there are not too many of us left. That said we can try to compartmentalize tastes and styles (and of course be sued for discrimination) and become more rule-bound. I once belonged to a fairly rough and tough motorcycle racing club. All meetings were run according to Roberts Rules of Order. If you went to a meeting you’d never recognize those guys. If you have an expectation it has to be the rule. Decide if you want it.

Last, I worked with people for years on interpersonal skills and two conclusions I came to were, the written word is the worst way to settle a dispute; the less literate the form (facebook, text, tweet) the worse it gets. Second, when dealing with difficult people it is helpful to remember we are all difficult.

I have fun at fictionaut. We may have no love for the Pilistines, but they’re gonna live next door.

As said the immortal Pogo, “We have met the enemy and he is us.”

See ya
Jul 01, 04:13pm

"If people cannot express derogatory, negative and even hostile opinions on this site, it's not a literary forum, it's useless. Not everything written here is good and just as in a graduate workshop, all criticism should be welcome."

Jim

-- James Robison's comment about three up or so and pasted here is spot on.

Susan Tepper
Jul 01, 04:14pm

Larry thanks for your posting. You are a manners guy. Most people appreciate being treated with a fair amount of dignity. Art, after all, has never been an easy gig. No matter who you are, or how much success you've achieved as a writer, sooner or later there is that bottom to face.

I moderated the Small Press Panel at the Hunter College Conference in June. I was surpised by how many writers we got in the room this year that had been previously published by the "biggies" (S&S, Random House, etc). But they could no longer get a book deal at those places because their previous sales fell short of the huge numbers required now (half a million books) some said. These were writers whose previous books sold between 30,000 to 50,000 copies. Now they were without editor or agent, and sitting in on a Small Press panel.

That spoke volumes. Everything is in flux these days. Nobody can depend on what used to be.

At least here, on Fictionaut, it's nice to be able to expect some courtesy and comraderie. The little bits we often need to get us through the story we're writing, the poem, the book. Because out there in the brave new world of publishing, it's all changed now.

Susan Tepper
Jul 01, 04:19pm

Sheldon, your post just popped in as I was writing in response to Larry Strattner. This is not a graduate workshop, never purported to be, never will be. There are people here who have written just one story in their entire lives. There are readers only, too. It was set up this way from the beginning by the founders of this site.

Susan Tepper
Jul 01, 04:31pm

Or, if not from the very beginning, it has evolved this way. Many writers on Fictionaut go on to graduate programs, as a result of the constuctive feedback and encouragement they get here. People at any level don't get better when they are torn down. I believe it in my core. I learned it at the hands of the best acting teachers in NYC. Nobody gets better by being hurt. And even writers of the highest level can be hurt by a bad review in, say, The NY Times. Just ask them how it feels.

James Lloyd Davis
Jul 01, 04:51pm

Fictionaut is not a graduate workshop as far as I can tell. If it was, I wouldn't be here because I'm not at all fond of academic structure and I've seen a lot of pettiness in workshop settings of all kinds. They may have value to some, but I personally believe that the best workshop is one in which an author compares his or her output to the field at large. In that respect, Fictionaut is an excellent benchmark because of the diversity within a largely literary community. Good and even great writers abound here and they are generous enough to share their work and support the work of others.

Opinions, however, are as varied as can be expected in such a diverse mix, so the value of comments is something that must be weighed against the source.

Fictionaut bills itself as bringing "...the social web to literary fiction, connecting readers and writers through a community network that doubles as selfselecting magazine highlighting the most exciting short stories, poetry, flash fiction, and novel excerpts."

I don't see the word "workshop" anywhere in there. Past paractice has to guide where rules are not in existence and, by and large, as long as I've been here, comments like the one that started this thread are exceedingly rare ... a good thing, since some 'writing' web sites get pretty rough and if I want rough, I'll go to a biker bar.

You want to be helpful to a writer? Be helpful, but I don't think we really want to see this place degenerate into one where comments that essentially call a writer's work valueless become commonplace.

I think we are all intelligent enough to make our own judgements concerning value and I would hope that we continue to lean toward encouragement over "frank assessments."

But then, that's my opinion. I might be here for different reasons than some.

MaryAnne Kolton
Jul 01, 05:41pm

I think James and I agree completely on this. He just said it so much more elegantly.

Jim V
Jul 01, 06:36pm

Let me explain why James Robison is right.

Fictionaut is like a workshop in that every piece is offered for commentary, the way a manuscript would be passed around a table. It is not offered for publication without comments. This is just like a writer's workshop-- except in a writer's workshop the person doesn't get to erase other people's comments, like he does here.

Anyway, that commentary is (or should be) restricted to the thread. If someone came to the forum and started bashing one of the stories or poems here, then that would be extremely out of line. Right? It would be holding someone up for ridicule in a place he/she may not even be visiting. The same is true for a criticism of a comment.

In other words, if we were in a real life workshop, rather than a virtual one, if someone offered a piece of writing for commentary, it would be fine to judge the work in the room at the time, and the comments about the work at the time, but it would be out of line to go to the bar afterwards and talk badly about the people in the writing workshop.

This forum is the bar.

Also, I see no reason why a harsh critique of a comment is any less hurtful to a writer than a harsh critique of a poem or story. In each case there is an ego involved, and if we must always be sensitive to each other's feelings to the point we dare not say anything that might become destructive of a person's confidence, then surely we should do it all ways.

(PS: By holding such a person up for contempt, it puts a chill into others. Beware of saying anything negative! It could be your head on the chopping block next! This may not have been Susan's intent, but it almost certainly will be the result.)

These have been my points all along, but they are points I have only made here. I have not made them on another site, in another thread, on Facebook, in a poem, etc. Where you say something, not just what you say, matters.

Susan Tepper
Jul 01, 07:04pm

Wow, Jim Valvis, you keep coming back to me. It is starting to totally tick me off. I am determined to despise rotten behavior on any level. And you are determined to perpetutate it. Fictionaut is not a WORKSHOP. Since you are relatively new to this site, we will forgive you this lapse. But as Jim Davis just wrote at length...
Jim Valvis, I was entitled to simply click you away on facebook. I didn't start a war with you. I just clicked you away. Now I want you to leave me alone. Just click me away and that will be that. Because I have gotten a lot of mail about this posting, and you are not looking very good. To continue in this vein is not a good thing for you. I CONGRATULATED YOU on your poetry blog posting and yet you still go after me. It's time to chill.

Susan Tepper
Jul 01, 07:07pm

And, frankly, Jim Valvis, don't you think it's a tad suckie to bring up another writer's opinion in order to validate your own? Jim Robison and I may totally disagree on this, but we are friends and will stay friends, because we have a mutual respect.

Jim V
Jul 01, 07:15pm

Susan, you address nothing I say, merely attack me relentlessly.

People mail you stuff? Big whoop. People mail me stuff too. For all we know, they're the same people.

You congratulating me does not (and will not) innoculate you from criticism. (Was that your intent all along? Yeah, probably.) I wouldn't be very true to myself if I merely rolled over on my beliefs and opinions every time someone buttered me up. Maybe that's how you do business. Not me.

This isn't a war, Susan. You're not important enough to me for me to go to war. But no, I'm not just going to disappear because you demand it.

Susan Tepper
Jul 01, 07:20pm

You are insane. I believe that. Leave me the hell alone or I'm going to request that this post be shut down.

Jim V
Jul 01, 07:25pm

True, I've shown no ability to reason here. Clearly I'm a headcase. I mean, I have to be. I disagreed with Susan Tepper.

Susan Tepper
Jul 01, 07:30pm

Nope. You're a mean guy. That is your problem. I'm requesting this posting is shut down.

Jim V
Jul 01, 07:33pm

You should do that. Since you can't seem to answer a single point I made.

Franklin Goodish
Jul 02, 10:33pm

I am the guilty party. I didn't care for Ms. Bruno's "poem" and I commented on it. She commented any number of negative comments on my flash pieces. Was it tit for tat? Perhaps that was 5% of it. But I just felt it was one of those short pieces that wanted to "earn" so much in its brevity without actually earning it. So I called her on it. And apparently she is near and dear to Ms. Tepper's heart. Apparently, once again, Ms. Tepper seeks to bully those who don't fawn over stories or say silent. If you publish a story or poem, then you earn the good and bad. If you only want to hear the good then show the story or poem to your "nice" parents (ha, my parents have always been tough critics so not all parents). In any event, I haven't read all the comments but I find Ms. Tepper's bullying attempts alarming, obvious, and kind of sad. I responded viscerally to the poem I read. Could I have been nicer or kinder? Of course. I just didn't like it and thought it was one of those pieces that aims for too much without earning it. David Erlewine a/k/a Franklin Goodish

Franklin Goodish
Jul 02, 10:36pm

And I haven't read all of the comments on here but I have to say folks like Matt Potter who say things like "why make any derogatory comments" confound me. Are we not writing to stir people up? Are we really only interested in our friends publishing and complimenting us? Maybe. Perhaps I'm just jaded. I am not writing much and admittedly a bit "down" on the writing world. But I do have to say I LOVE great writing. I am still moved by great writing. Perhaps I'm just moving to the "anti-flash" world where 20-40 word pieces that aim to capture such momentous issues just can't do it well very often. Anyway, I like Fictionaut and am admittedly guilty of getting peeved in the past when writers "ruined" my party by commenting nasty things on an otherwise laudatory thread of comments.

Franklin Goodish
Jul 02, 10:41pm

wow, a lot of elbows being thrown in here about me. to those taking shots, my name is david erlewine. i'm an admittedly 'blah' writer. i had a little run and am no longer writing let alone publishing pieces. i don't like using capitalization to begin sentences. I occasionally contradict that. I am TIRED of completely fawning comment threads. We need to take the good and bad. Please. Now I must go read to the blind. And then volunteer at the local foundry. Then I must tend to my garden. I take carrots and tomatoes from it to feed local homeless. Good night all. Oh and Franklin Goodish was the real name of Bruiser Brody. So the "blood sport" comment by Ms. Tepper DID make me laugh! DE

Franklin Goodish
Jul 02, 10:45pm

Mr. Valvis, I've been watching "The Tudors" of late and you are SOOOOOO Thomas More and Ms. Tepper is, hmm, um, I just can't put my grubby fingers on it. Oh yes, she is Henry VIII! Oh, except he screamed in anguish (somehow, beautifully, understatedly) as More's head was chopped.

Susan Gibb
Jul 02, 11:51pm

David, that's you? I'm surprised.

Matt Potter
Jul 03, 12:06am

My issue with derogatory comments is ... why would you bother? I do think there is too much gushing and back-slapping on Fictionaut, I do, and have said (or written) so before. And by putting any writing (or anything) out there in the public, you invite criticism, good and bad, but my issue is, as always, it's a WEBSITE and um, in the greater scheme of things it's fun but it's NOT THAT IMPORTANT to even bother commenting about in the first place.

... writes me, having just contradicted myself somewhat ...

Let's move on.

Jürgen Fauth
Jul 03, 09:56am

Could someone link to the offending comment, please? As anyone who's ever been in a workshop knows, commenting on other people's writing is an ancient and confounding art. We'd like to keep things both useful and respectful on Fictionaut, but that doesn't mean every comment has to be fulsome praise. If you don't appreciate a specific comment on your work, it might be best to simply delete it and move on. You could also contact the commenter directly, and - especially in the case of recurring or abusive negative comments - contact me.

There's a difference between respectful suggestion, honest, well-intended critique, and damaging attacks. Every writer on Fictionaut will be looking for a different kind of feedback, and everybody has a different pain threshold. Personally, in the case of an unpublished piece, I'd prefer honest feedback to fawning, even if it hurts a little. At least someone took the time to read and think about it, and had the courage to publicly make a suggestion. Chances are my story will be better for it, and I'll be grateful. We all have a lot to learn from every reader. But again, everyone's expectations are different - and it's a touchy area because most of us take our writing very seriously.

So: for writers, it might be useful to indicate our expectations in the author's note. I'd give very different feedback on a first draft that says "help please!" than on a story that's already been published and that the writer considers finished.

If you receive a comment you don't appreciate, you have the following escalating options: a) think about it for a day - my teacher used to say that even the dumbest comment had something to tell you b) delete and forget about it c) email the commenter for clarification or to let them know why you didn't appreciate the comment d) email me. In the case of personal attacks or abusive comments, I'll contact the commenter and, if necessary, remove their account.

Marcus Speh
Jul 03, 10:36am

...it's one of those days: we meant to go out to our cabin blissfully unaware of the electronic world, bird song rather than ghetto blaster and all that, but the car broke down. bummer. so i came here (again, been here before) only to find a gold mine (as someone has noticed) for a series of shorts that i'm writing on ... writers and writing.

[disclaimer: this doesn't mean that i'm discounting any of the serious debate that's going on...i'm too young on this creative journey to burn calories with fighting or taking sides but y'all got my sympathies, seriously. as a writer i can see many, many sides of the same situation and topic. comes with the obsession. end of.]

i loved a comment made by matt potter made in the comments to estelle's poem "pass": "And you know, if it really only took 3 or 4 minutes, more power to you, Estelle!" - now, i now matt personally fairly well and he's no douchebag when it comes to editing & sweating over a piece. but the key term here really is "power":

your power as a writer of course grows over time (take 10k) but once you have it, you have it and you can summon it anywhere and, literally, "in your own time". time belongs to you as a summoner of powerful writing—it's no longer somebody else's time.

for me, estelle's very short, very simple poem had that quality, too.

as for conduct & comment: jurgen's comment is wonderfully balanced and directive at once. those who've been writing electronically about writing electronically as long as i have (2 decades) know this simply is a debate we'll have to have again and again till we see each other again and speak, adult eye to adult eye, adult ear to adult ear, the way communication was invented by the gods.

Matt Potter
Jul 03, 11:10am

At the risk of sounding gushy, what a great comment, Marcus!

Linda Simoni-Wastila
Jul 03, 11:14am

i avoided reading this thread for a number of reasons, but largely because my life at the moment is full of adults not acting as such, with lots of venom flung at my husband (a uu minister), myself, and even my children. some of this poison is eye to eye/face to face, but much of it is behind our backs and we get it second-hand. reading this thread raises all that again, i feel my blood pressure rising and the place behind my eyes forming a little bubble of a headache.

every writer has a different threshold for 'pain'. that said, when you put your work up for public consumption, you are offering it up for the world to view and comment on by everyone, including the disgruntled, the bitter, and the crazy. it's part of the deal of being a writer out of the closet.

i think jurgen said it best and provided good guidance on how to respond to comments which offend. i also believe our responsibility as writers AND human beings is to choose love, not fear, whenever possible. you cannot change a person's words, thoughts, or actions, but you can control how you respond to them.

peace...

Franklin Goodish
Jul 03, 01:15pm

I'm done too but for the record I didn't send Ms. Tepper a single threatening email. My goodness, what a charge. I simply asked her not to email me at work, which is a government email address and which she sent me a number of messages over the past 9 months and which I repeatedly asked her not to use. Ugh. I do worry about Ms. Tepper's well being sometimes.

Since my thread is locked, I'll add here that "Justified" is a GREAT show. Love Raylan. In the final analysis, if I had to pick one show for the desert island game, it would be "Breaking Bad." Love Jessie. Loved the ending of Season 2. Season 3 though topped it somehow.

Linda's comments speak well. Ms. Tepper, you are full of vitriol and you tried to bully me "offline" into apologizing to Ms. Bruno. When I refused you called me an "ass." Then you made this public by going into forums and calling me out. It wasn't difficult, with a little digging, for anyone reading the thread to know you were referring to "my" comments on Ms. Bruno's poem. You amped this up. You made this what it has become, or at least you greatly contributed to it. I've seen you do this before. It, may I say, is your M.O. For shame.
This thread was locked on 2011-07-03 13:17:46 UTC.

Let's move on. -- Jurgen

Forum / derogatory comments

This thread was locked on 2011-07-03 13:17:46 UTC.