Forum / Star System

Ann Bogle
Jan 25, 08:20am

Anyone in the mood to discuss the fav "system" at Fictionaut?

In early fall I spent a week studying stories that may have been forgotten, missed, lost, or neglected at the website. I did that in assembling a mini-anthology on request. My idea for the mini-anthology was to find very good stories that had garnered fewer than nine and more than four fav's. At the time I was doing that there were something like 900 stories in the 4-9 fav range. Though I did find a few gems searching that way, forgotten by number, I also found that higher stars DID tend to mean better stories WHEN it came to the best pieces. (I didn't think of searching higher-fav stories to see if any of those were over-rated. I also didn't focus on poems.) I didn't find ten neglected (forgotten, missed) stories in the 4-9 fav range that equaled the best of the higher scoring stories. I created a mini-anthology after that based on idiosyncratic preference (rather than on the original plan).

In looking at my own list of stories -- I've posted 55 stories and poems in 18 months -- I'm wondering what sense (if any) to make of the way they land on my profile page, the order. I think my top story is the best one I ever wrote -- so that squares with the fav system. The best story I ever wrote garnered 23 fav's. The next most-fav'd story on my list is a very early one. I didn't link it in my mind to the top story in terms of time or method of composition, but now I somehow compare them as neighbors on my list. I'm looking at these rankings and see what falls to the provisional bottom (50 max. displayed of 55 stories). As things stand, "Hoss Men" with three fav's is at the bottom. "Hoss Men" keeps me up at night or wakes me in the middle of the night. It was the best thing I wrote in 2008, a difficult and great year otherwise. The top story I wrote in 1990. I feel worried, of course, that my ability (or tendency or inclination) to write what readers would like to read is in decline. On the other hand, stories I more or less tossed off (by comparison to the time it took to write "Hoss Men"), shorts (favored in general, especially fiction shorts), have fared better. Though not TOO well, I hope.

James Lloyd Davis
Jan 26, 04:13am

It's difficult, I think, to predict what people will accept as a 'good' story here at Fn. I know it has been for me, at least.

What will generate a high number of stars (faves)? Quality of content, acceptance and appeal is only part of the process. Some of it is, I think, 'brand' recognition ... for want of a better word. There are some writers on Fn who consistently post excellent work. I know that there are names I recognize and will seek out when I go through the list of postings. Sometimes, a piece of work will seem to go through the front page without a single comment or a fave until someone takes initiative and places one on that story. Then, the rate of comments and faves accelerates, exponentially if the piece is good, but it's not going to get noticed until someone puts a stamp on it. Maybe people see the list and look for stories that other people have fave'd and think, 'must be a good story,' so they are drawn to that story.

Short pieces of fiction are definitely favored here, and elsewhere online generally. Also, certain group associations, like the 52/250 participants, tend to bring their own audience.

It's safe to say that longer pieces, like your "Hoss Men" will not get a level playing field in competition for attention when 55 word and 250 word pieces abound around it. It follows, then, that without the attention, it will certainly not get the rating it may deserve. Ultimately, this may not be a good place to gauge your ability to "write what readers would like to read..." as you put it.

I never know, for instance, what kind of reception I'll get from anything I put out. But I do know that every time I post a long story, it will never (not ever, regardless of quality) get the same attention or acceptance as the 'flash' fictions I put out. In that respect, quality or appeal has nothing to do with the ratings. In fact, I would venture to say that anything longer than 670 words or thereabouts would be lucky to get even the three faves you got on "Hoss Men." (Four now.)

What does the reader want? In this venue, and online generally, 'shorter is better.'

Having said that, I believe that longer fiction can generate a readership, but not here. Maybe not online. The challenge becomes the finding of a venue.

W.F. Lantry
Jan 26, 05:28am

I've given up trying to figure it out. Of course, I don't get as many reads or as many favs as most, so I just compare my own stories to each other. And they're all over the map. One day I'll get two, the next day I'll get 6, the next day I'll get zero. Did I become a better or worse writer from one day to the next? I don't think so.

For a while, I tried to explain it by subject matter, but I can't find a common denominator. I even thought of barometric pressure, but that varies by region. So I completely gave up. Now, I'm just grateful if anyone clicks on one of my stories, doubly grateful if they comment, and triply grateful if they click that fav button. Much of the time, I don't even know who clicked it.

But it makes me happy when they do... ;)

Thanks,

Bill

Carol Reid
Jan 26, 05:58am

Some days I like everything on Facebook. I just click that little like button as if I'm Pavlov's dog and every clicky gets me a treat. Like, like, like.
Some days I feel like the last thing I want to do is click the like button. Who cares if I like something? Who do I think I am? What in the world can it matter?

Same thing here. I read lots, lots!! of fiction here that moves me, entertains me, makes me weep for every possible reason. Some days I fav because I can't help myself, some days that little clicky seems so woefully inadequate that it strikes me as a joke.

I try to read longer pieces because fewer people do here and I still believe that traditional short story length offers a different and valuable experience .

The fav system makes people feel good and sometimes recognizes superior work. I can live with it, most of the time.

Matt Dennison
Jan 26, 06:00am

*

Matt Dennison
Jan 26, 07:22am

(forgot to add my *comment*!)

"I like the form here. Monologue works for me. Good writing. Yes."

Linda Simoni-Wastila
Jan 26, 12:44pm

You always make me laugh, Matt. So thank you.

Ann, I have pondered the same thing. When I post my own stories, I think I have a good idea of how readers will respond. I am almost always wrong. Several of my most commented/faved stories were my throw-aways. Others, with little attention, I thought were stronger pieces. The only pattern I notice is that if a story gets a strong reaction here, it duds at my blog. And vice versa. Go figure.

I think James is correct about longer stories. I read most of the longer stories, but print them out first and carry them around with me. I have one of yours in my backpack now. I usually finish them days after posting and by then, they're 'off the board'. I try to remember to send the writer a message at the least.

I also think timing matters. Weekends seem slower for posts, early in the week there's a more frantic pace.

The volume here overwhelms me. I have little time to read on-line, and usually do on Thursday and Sunday nights. I tend to scan the recommended and current titles. This makes me feel awful, because there are so many great poems and stories I am missing, and because I want to encourage newbies here.

Carol's on point about mood. You can tell I'm grooving when I hand out lots of stars ;^)

Peace, Linda

David Ackley
Jan 26, 02:57pm

What's wrong with the favs is that they're a kind of binary blunt instrument, you either fav something or you don't and the withholding seems to imply a kind of criticism which may not have reflected what you felt on reading the piece at all. But they're what we have, and in sum, when given, reflect something like the "collective wisdom" of the group. I'm not so sure the same follows the withholding, since I've seen some very worthy pieces, prose and poetry slip past favless or nearly so. Some of them seem to suffer the purgatory of length, but that isn't the only reason, though I'd be hard put to say what the others are.

Although rating systems offering numbers of stars 1-4 have their own weaknesses, something like that might be little more to the purpose.

For my own part, I'm with Bill Lantry, I'm grateful for the reads and anything over that is frosting on the cake.

Ann Bogle
Jan 26, 03:38pm

Someone who back channeled me on this topic wondered whether limiting the number of fav's we can give per week might help with ... something. I, for one, will think about that.

Things I'm getting from this thread:

-length of story affects chance it's read
-volume is high at website, varies by day
-certain writers have tested appeal
-not fav'ing a story may not mean a critical response to it
-many of us feel grateful for three kinds of response to our stories/poems
-fav's improve mood (of giver & receiver)
-it's sometimes hard for the writer to predict a story's chances

All great replies. Thanks.

A friend called on the phone and explained her view of the fav system. Let's see if she weighs in here ...

Christian Bell
Jan 26, 04:42pm

Good discussion. The only thing that I would add—and this may sound cynical—is that inevitably the fave system is based on one’s own interaction with the rest of Fictionaut. If you read other stories and comment and fave, you will likely receive some measure of that in return, if you’re not a well-known author (well-known as in, for example, Amy Hempel or Mary Gaitskill well-known). Over time, through this interaction, you’ll build a following. I’ve found that if I’m away for awhile or haven’t been able to read and comment on others’ stories, my following dwindles, and I’ll get little response to a new piece.

While I want everyone to be poised at their keyboard, waiting feverishly for my next posting, I realize that this is not the case. Fictionaut is a community, and if I haven’t been around to participate in it, that’s my fault. I think generally you get in return here what you give. I'm comfortable with that.

Also, you’re going to get more reads and responses if you publicize your most recent posting on avenues such as Facebook and Twitter. If you’re doing this successfully, you’ve probably built up a following outside of Fictionaut. Okay, that’s a second point.

Matt Dennison
Jan 26, 05:26pm

And you are....?

Christian Bell
Jan 26, 05:34pm

Precisely :)

Matt Dennison
Jan 26, 05:53pm

Nice to meet you, Mr. P!
--Sam Vaguely

Ann Bogle
Jan 30, 06:58am

Not cynical at all, Christian, sensical.

When I surveyed the site for stories in the 4-9-fav range, I also counted the number of fav'd stories on my list and the number of fav's I had received. I wrote on my profile page (Sept. 8, 2010):

"Today I'm feeling mathematical. Relating to arithmetic, defined as: 'The mathematics of integers, rational numbers, real numbers, or complex numbers under addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division.'

"The story I'm writing [Members of the Story] will have 50 parts of 55 words each. It will be 2,750 words long including its title or eleven 250-word segments. With luck, it will pass as fifty stories within a story. With further luck, it will pass as eleven stories within a story, but I don't know how that will work out yet. It will belong to two of the math groups here at Fictionaut: The 55-word story and 52/250.

"I just tallied up the number of stories I have fav'd: 249.

"The number of fav's received: 252.

Go figure!"

Matt Potter
Jan 30, 01:08pm

I have to agree with much of what Linda wrote. I myself have only faved 4 stories thus far, with many more coming my way. But while I LOVE being faved, I do think people hand them out too often, so they start to mean little. Or at least less. When I look at some people's profiles and see all the stories they have faved, I wonder if there are any they haven't faved. It can become a little sycophantic, a constant round of returned thank yous.

I also know that there is no way to predict how a story will go once you put it on Fictionaut ... or anywhere. I am constantly surprised by reactions to my own work, and have often found the throwaways getting the biggest response ... but not always.

I also realise I have a small name at Fictionaut: but the big names here seem to put a lot of effort into being part of this community, are constantly reading the work of others, and commenting and praising.

As to story length: yes, HUGE issue. If it even looks big I won't read it. I have books for that. And when setting up 'Pure Slush', I limited fiction to 500 words because, quite honestly, I did not want to spend my entire life reading long texts, no matter how good they might be.

Ann Bogle
Jan 30, 05:04pm

It seems we all likely have a complex set of criteria in mind when we fav a story. And we're using what David called a binary, blunt instrument to express those criteria. It's complex, even if as Matt says people have social goals more in mind than literary ones. I went through my own fav list carefully in September with the mini-anthology in mind. I could remember ALL the stories I had fav'd and reread a lot of them. I didn't unfav any of them. I feel pretty clear when I hit that button. I don't fav everything I read. For me, what I am calling this awkward word "memorability" has a lot to do with it. I like the idea of portable art, so, after reading a story or poem I like to be able to identify what I can take of it with me, what I'll think of it in the future: sometimes it's only an image, other times a thought or idea, a reference, and best, a series of actions as in a dream. There is poetry I like that I cannot remember thematically or imagistically but can remember rhythmically -- that is mostly not the kind of poetry we see at Fictionaut. The poems here are more discrete.

Walter Bjorkman
Jan 30, 05:29pm

I join in in faving and receiving them, hard not to as it often seems the driving force to have your own read. But I'd just as soon not see them anywhere, it is so subjective as to timing & mood as stated above. I prefer reaction as comment,not work-shopping as such, unless in one, but what it meant, if anything, to the reader. Stars propagate more stars as does giving them, which seems all wrong to me. If you took a poll, I'd vote out darn star.

Linda Simoni-Wastila
Jan 30, 06:18pm

Walter, exactly. Peace...

James Lloyd Davis
Jan 30, 06:35pm

It's easy to criticize the giving of something as abstract as a 'fav' toward the relative quality of any story or poem. I like getting them, yes, but realize that they represent little in terms of what I'm looking for. Truthfully ... it's great when you look at a list of posted material and something you have written has more 'fav's than those of others on the page, but when you stop and think of it ... how does it help you? What does it mean?

On the other hand, a comment from a reader, something substantive that tells you a reader connected with your work and why, is infinitely more valuable than a 'fav.' I post here to experiment, to try out different forms and modes of style ... and yes, to participate in an online community of like minded people, other writers of differing perspectives. My personal tendency is to be a bit reclusive, so this web site is a boon to me personally.

Here's another thought about faves. There are a few people who -never- acknowledge a comment or a fav. I suppose there are valid reasons to minimize one's responses, lack of time, whatever, and I don't give a fave for the purpose of a 'thank you,' but Fn is not really a publication, is it? It's a sort of peerage, a network. Why put something out on this site if not for the purpose of obtaining some useful feedback? And when you get feedback, why would you not acknowledge it? Maybe that's silly to mention, but it bothers me. If someone goes to the trouble to give you a reading, to comment on your work, why would you not acknowledge that? Like I said, I suppose there are reasons ... for instance, we have had some rather famous writers post their stories and I would hardly expect them to respond, since their presence seems more like an invitational exposition than participation in a community. They can hardly be expected, then, to respond. However, for the average person here, published, under-published, or even unpublished, communication is a key to participation.

End of sermon.

I give out a lot of faves, a lot, but I don't think there is anything 'sycophantic' in my practice ... and it seems a bit over the top for anyone to suggest that it is. I don't intend to stop giving credit where credit is due. I also try to make a relevant comment on every piece that I fave, something that will tell you why I like your work. There is a LOT of good writing here ... a lot.

Walter may have a good idea about the star system, to eliminate same. If so, a comment would be the proper way to tell someone you like their work. We are writers, after all. We use words to express ourselves, eh? Nothing wrong with that.

Sam Rasnake
Jan 30, 08:35pm

A fav can help me decide if I want to do more with the piece - maybe work it into a ms or something of that nature. This is the main reason I post works here. Posting has helped me see groupings of poems, for example, that I might not have otherwise seen. I have this luxury since I only post published work to the main wall. Comments have the same effect. A comment & fav carry the same weight for me.

Several of my best pieces - at least some of those I consider to be my best work - have received the fewest favs ... and the fewest comments. I find this interesting. Even with that, it helps me see which works of mine readers may connect with.

Good thread of discussion here.

Jürgen Fauth
Jan 30, 08:37pm

Great conversation. Carson and I thought long and hard about the faves system when we set up the site. I agree with most of what's been said here -- it's certainly a blunt instrument, it doesn't necessarily say anything that couldn't be said in a comment, handing out more faves might result in receiving more too (but is that a bad thing?), etc.

For us, it is first and foremost a mechanism to generate the recommended lists -- if Fictionaut is (also) a magazine that is co-edited by all members, the faves are your votes as to what should show on the front page. It's also a bookmarking system that lets you keep a list of memorable stories you found.

We consciously decided against a 5-star system or a "didn't like" button. First of all, we didn't want to encourage negativity (better to simply pass over something you didn't like, or explain why in a comment), and a 5-star ranking system seemed to only add more useless complexity and cause writers to fret over "why did I only get 4.2 average on this story?"

Limiting the number of faves you get to hand out per day or week sounds like an interesting idea but I suspect it would complicate things without offering much in return. Besides, why restrict the love?

Jürgen Fauth
Jan 30, 08:43pm

One more thought -- I think of giving a fave as saying "I recommend this." It's really no more complicated than that, and I like that simplicity. Anything else you'd like to communicate, you can say in a comment.

Sam Rasnake
Jan 30, 08:43pm

Fictionaut is an online magazine co-edited by members. Yes. I agree.

Lori Lou Freshwater
Jan 30, 08:52pm

I use fave to give extra approval to the writer, but I also selfishly use it as a bookmark for work I want to be able to go back to for one reason or another. I come hear to learn and this system helps me in that cause.

Susan Tepper
Jan 31, 01:55am

I consciously choose not to look at who has commented on a particular work until after I've read it. I like the "blind" read. It would be fun to set up the stories as blind (don't kill me Jurgen and Carson!)
But to read work anonymously and comment and fave could be very cool.
But it's probably not doable, so you can forget I suggested it. I just like the element of surprise. And it would make it very non-partial...

James Lloyd Davis
Jan 31, 02:10am

Fave as "I recommend this." That's a fine way to look at it.

J. Mykell Collinz
Jan 31, 11:31pm

I find the favorites list very useful. It gives me a linked list of my comments, since I usually attempt to explain why I'm faving a story or a poem. I go back over the list, looking for new comments, or to remember old ones. When I check someone's wall I review their favorites and I often find stories I would have otherwise missed.

I read long stories when I can, especially writers I enjoyed reading in the past, but also new ones, if the story pulls me in.

As for giving favs, I do it as a reader. I'm not an editor, an agent, or a critic: although I'm often trying to think like one as I read and write.

Am I a sycophantic, self-seeking servile flatterer? A fawning parasite? A little.

Ann Bogle
Feb 01, 12:38am

J. Mykell, love that suggestion: to read from others' fav lists. I'll add that to the thread about how to access the growing archive of un- and under-fav'd stories.

And love your last line!
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