Forum / is Fictionaut good or bad for getting "published"?

Sly V. Rourke
Sep 13, 10:55am

First, apologies for dropping off the earth for awhile. My new passion is running and I'm as obsessive about that as I was about writing/editing. I'm healthy but usually tired at night/asleep instead of reading/writing flash. I still read a lot of stories on here...I just don't post as often.

Okay, with that out of the way, I'm just throwing this out there...is anyone else less "intent" on getting published in journals because they can post a story on here, get a lot of reads, and possibly get a lot of good feedback/faves? I'm finding myself perfectly willing to risk not getting published in a journal I like if I can take the risk and post it here and possibly get some faves/comments, even if that means some editors consider it published.

Maybe I'm going through a phase or maybe I'm just acting out on my love/hate relationship with writing/publishing/submitting/etc.

In any event, I sort of like posting a story that may/may not work and either getting a whole lot of reads and no comments/no faves ... or maybe reaching the opposite result. Incidentally, I'm a huge NBA fan and I used to look for the box scores that would show minutes played and then points/rebounds/assists/etc. There is something like that here...when I have 30-40 reads and no comments and no faves...I "know" it's time to get back to work on the piece.

Anyway, just wanted to see if anyone could relate/identify at all to my blathering.

Sly V. Rourke
Sep 13, 10:59am

Okay, two blunders - one, and this can't be stated fervently enough, I'm not a huge NBA fan. I have no idea why I said that. I follow basketball a bit but haven't read an NBA box score closely in awhile. Used to though as a kid, which would be about 30 years ago. Two, I've been away not just b/c of running but because I was writing so much that I was constantly tired and cranky and rudish to my wife/kids and then I got a promo at work and realized I couldn't keep up with my new responsibilities on three hours of sleep a night. So, I've cut way back on how much flash/fiction I let myself read/write.

I'm just looking for a middle ground, one where I read/write just "enough" to enjoy without constantly fretting about publications and perfect sentences and minor characters' motivations? Does anyone else struggle to find that with writing as sadly and unsuccessfully as I do?

Roberta
Sep 13, 11:30am

I hear you, I think.

I've had real submission-apathy for the most part this year. (I really dislike apathy, but in this instance I think it's cool.) Partly I'm just not writing a ton. I think if I wrote something I was really happy with, could really see in in a specific place, I'd prob shake myself out of this and send it along. But for now I just find that whole process can be a bit gruelling, and I'd rather just be writing for myself, posting it here if I feel like it - as I find this a fairly supportive space. And...that's it. If I do have a sudden surge of writing inspiration any time soon, perhaps I'll feel more driven.

But...I think creativity is meant to me fun. Or invigorating. Or satisfying. Or a release. At least for me. I think I'm going to join a mindfulness based writing group. (So they base the writing practise around the ideas of mindfulness meditation.) To me, writing from that calm, meditative state of mind sounds ideal.

So um. Yeah. I guess what I'm saying is: I recommend meditation! Streamlines the fretting. But I'm a bit of a hippy. That may not be that helpful.

Matt Dennison
Sep 13, 11:42am

I have no strong feelings about apathy...

Susan Gibb
Sep 13, 11:52am

Hmmph. I'm not sure how I feel about it all. I like posting something here when I feel something is so great I want to share it with you guys. Then, of course, the reality sinks in that maybe I was a bit too impulsive. It's not that great. Then comes the, "Oh Lord, I'm so embarrassed."

But this is so much better than clicking the "submit" button and knowing that somewhere, some editor's laughing his ass off at you. At least here, we're among friends.

Roberta
Sep 13, 11:57am

^ The lack of a follow-up rejection letter when you've (by which I mean 'me') posted something on fnaut is compelling. I feel like there's a lot to be said for that.

James Lloyd Davis
Sep 13, 12:11pm

For me, it's all about having an answer when someone asks you, "What do you do?"

"I'm a writer."

"Oh."

You watch their brow knit, their eyes narrow. Most people don't know what to say next, so they move on.

Sly V. Rourke
Sep 13, 12:18pm

Thanks Roberta, James, Susan and Matt.

I'm as fucked up as they come vis-a-vis writing. I just need to reconcile with that and stop being a little bitch about it. Of course then I'd be someone else entirely and who knows what would transpire.

I really like Fictionaut and think it may be the "future" of things in the sense that this sort of interaction is really cool. I guess there's no reason already published stuff can't go in journals and then on fictionaut, or vice-versa, so of course there's room for everything.

Marcus Speh
Sep 13, 12:46pm

aww. my kind of thread. thanks for telling at it is [for you], david. there's so much fame massaging going on everywhere that a good dose of writerly reality feels good to hear. i felt myself to be in a similar situation plus i thought i realized that flash fiction was only a means to an end (novel) for me. with great regrets because it means that i need to cut myself off from a lot of the short term gratification that flash meant for me. i also hope to find a middle ground in the near future. as for publications: i live shamelessly off my own treasure chest. once i can see its bottom, publishing flash is over for me (unless my novel bombs that is - all six fingers crossed). here’s my shortlist of tips now since you asked, Speh’s tried and tested “reblikoff” method.

---- snip/snap

REACH OUT.
apart from recharging, my own break (partly executed on the footsteps of david erlewine’s departure) has given me some much needed perspective in another respect: i put a lot of hours formerly spent online into working with a group of writers that i meet in berlin, person to person rather than 2d face to 2d face. i can recommend that to anyone - most of you probably are already part of a non-virtual community, but if you aren't: reach out. (that's the opposite of roberta's suggestion: to reach within).

BLITHER ON.
i'm also curious how another strategy pans out: i have a new blog which i intend to use (1) as a professional platform - providing not too lushly commented information about where i’m at, what’s cooking, who’s got a view ... without turning into oprah; (2) to comment upon and publicly work through my own novel-writing and writerly growth process, opening myself up for comment and critique; (3) to take the pressure off the publish|perish game by publishing pieces that are new and/or that i care about. all this is of course no different from what quite a few of you do anyway.

KEEP OFF.
do as david’s example (and my own) suggest: listen to the good friends and family in your real life (more than to a legion of virtual ‘friends’ including your readers) and regulate your daily intake of digital attention. i’ve been a coach for long enough to know that the basis of any creative undertaking, high and low, is paying attention to your loved ones and keeping them happy enough to want to stay around and share their lives with you. several platoons of sad executives have marched through my practice who didn’t obey this rule. what you pay attention to will grow; what you don’t pay attention to will wither. (i know i sound like a flash fiction-writing deepak chopra now - what the heck...and i’m back with roberta lawson, suppose i’m almost an old hippie, too). i find that i must keep my fingers off the keyboard if i want to remain effective at producing fiction that pleases me (and possibly others).

---- snip/snap

@david - “reblikoff” or not, it’s a continuous struggle esp for a workaholic like me. but: once i was convinced that i was ‘for real’ and that it was unlikely that i would suddenly either not write anymore or only write crap, submitting/publishing became much less important (though i still greatly enjoy seeing myself ‘in print’ or ‘in pixels’, only having done this for 1 year and a bit or so). at this point in my journey, i’m looking for an agent or another professional/commercial entity willing to bet on my ass. (figuratively speaking, of course: i don’t actually write with my ass.)

@roberta - it’s nothing without the fun. i’ve written through (non-creative) pain for years and it’s been bad. a story in itself, now that i think of it...

@susan - i have submitted here with exactly this mindset and i’m sure i’ll do it again! there’s a mixture of friendliness and competition in any functioning community that makes it hard to stay away if you have anything of value to offer.

puuh. talk about turning the computer off. over an out!

Marcus Speh
Sep 13, 12:47pm

@james "You watch their brow knit, their eyes narrow." - i haven't experienced that here. but there are more writers in berlin than man holes. i think.

David Ackley
Sep 13, 12:54pm

I've gotten lazy as hell about submitting. No, wait that's not true, I've always been lazy about it but it's intensified. I remember reading someone say here in her profile that she wasn't a "submissions junkie." I liked that, at least as an excuse. I also, when I do submit something only submit to one magazine at a time, and when the piece gets rejected I usually decide they were right and rewrite it. As you might see this tends to slow things down. I like putting things up at Fictionaut, some of which(before I figured out cut and paste) were actually written on the site. And rewritten. How lame is that?

Still, aside from an editor's approval, how different is this from publishing?

You put something out, people read it or don't, comment or not. It's all good.

I keep thinking maybe an editor will read something here and "discover" my work. That would be cool.

Sam Rasnake
Sep 13, 01:24pm

This is the part where I usually ride the horse named Publishing the Piece, but David A. has ridden it for me.

This point aside - I absolutely understand how venues such as FN and FB just to name two - ... Wait I may not be able to mention Facebook without running that by somebody's legal dept. ...get in the way of writing or can become what is done instead of writing.

Still, it can be quite helpful to know various thoughts about the direction the work ... the real work that is to be done as Gary Snyder would add ... is or is not taking.

Susan Gibb
Sep 13, 02:17pm

Wow, some great input here. I think what Fictionaut offers us is instant gratification. It's not publishing, but it's also not waiting for months to hear whether someone liked or disliked your story. That's all I care about anyway, is if someone enjoyed reading it. Here, you get more than editors have time or inclination to say about your work. And let's face it, most literary publications are read primarily by students, academics, or other writers. Here, the professional writers, the dedicated writers, gather to read the work of their peers.

But there is a place for both, and there is still that validation that publication by a literary venue gives you. Here, you're accepted, plain and simple. And that's a good feeling too.

Kate Brown
Sep 13, 02:47pm

Every so often my six year old daughter takes my hand and says 'I think it's sad Mummy, that you don't have any diplomas like me and Daddy.' She means it. I tell her that, actually, I don't really mind not having any. And deep down, I mean it. Which kind of surprises me. I'm as competitive as the next writer on a bad day, but in the end, what matters most to me is the process of becoming a better writer and knowing that what I've written has pleased readers in some way. When my stories are published, online, or in print, I find out little about what readers think. Initially I feel proud of myself, but a few days later, sometimes, I feel empty and desperate to know the truth. Am I really any good? Maybe nobody reads my precious words...

On Fictionaut it seems, from my small experience of the place, that I have access to something I don't have elsewhere. Something that provides a good contrast to the above. Readers who are writers. When you read, you may not understand where my words are coming from, but you know what the thing I'm doing means to me. When you write, you frequently astonish me. So much power and beauty. So much I can learn all in one place. Nicer than the extremes submitting.

I don't think this answers the question, but I'm going to post it anyway 'cos the question inspired me...

eamon byrne
Sep 13, 05:17pm

'Submitting'. I hate that word. When I was at school I would 'submit' my homework, 'submit' myself for punishment. Then later I would 'submit' myself for a job interview. Always there would be some higher 'authority' to 'submit' to.

Away with 'submitting' I say!

As for that other insecurity, this need to be 'published'. Pfah!

(jeez i'm in a sour mood this morning)

Ann Bogle
Sep 13, 06:58pm

My answer is "good" to David's title question, "Is Fictionaut good or bad for getting published?"

I've used Fictionaut in a more daring way than some of the writers here. Daring is not always "good." Sometimes it is foolish. I've used the site not always in the most cautious way, knowing it may not be "good" for publishing those pieces that I post. "Publish" in this connection has a mixed connotation, but I mean, writing selected by an editor or team of editors that goes to a wide audience, wide at least in potential, and that garners recognition or "credit."

I recently tallied the pieces I've posted at Fictionaut: 40 (two of those are in two parts). On average that's one posting for every 10 days. The poems (5) were all previously published. Of the 18 fictions and 17 (16) "indeterminate prose narratives" I posted, 5 of the fictions and 2 of the "indeterminate prose narratives" were previously published. Since posting them at Fictionaut, 4 of the fictions have been subsequently published, 3 fictions have been reprinted, and 3 of the "indeterminate prose narratives" have been published or are forthcoming. That accounts for about 66% of a year's worth of publishing.

In my role as editor, I have published or referred for publication (based on reading at Fictionaut) about a dozen writers and their stories.

I have written pieces that I like because there is a ready audience at Fictionaut, pieces I might not have written or might have written but with less energy or direction had there been no audience.

I am close to someone who has published four books of poetry with major poetry presses. Many of his individual poems have appeared in prestigious journals. He still sends out the "old-fashioned way" using the post office and SASEs. We are publishing new work at about the same rate. We discuss it. We're not in a competition or a race, but we make a good test case for the question.

The publications who have picked up my work since I joined Fictionaut: Istanbul Literary Review, Metazen, Wigleaf, and indirectly, Argotist Ebooks, are all publications I might have aspired to be published in had I gone to them. Other publications' editors at Fictionaut become aware of our work and range in a way they would not become aware by reading a single submission. jmww, Pank, Blip, and others.

To me,the evidence is that Fictionaut is beneficial to publishing. I recently deposted three stories (one fiction and two indeterminate prose narratives) as a safeguard toward print publication. I plan to repost them here if they do not win.

I realized that the golden mean is to be flexible, adaptable, and to follow guidelines given by editors. The so-called "old-fashioned" ethic of internet editors (to publish only work that has never been seen--virgin work) may in time be replaced by a different ethic, one based more in internet connectivity.

Linda Simoni-Wastila
Sep 13, 08:24pm

Fascinating question with fascinating opinions. I've learned so much from reading everyone's pontifications.

Being an anal, compulsive Ivory Tower sort who lives by the publish-or-perish credo (alas, in the sciences...), I'm kind of hard-wired to approach my writing in the same manner. I doff my cap to all of you who have published in cool places like word riot, glimmer train, elimae, pank, kill author, jmww (where I read slush myself), etcetera because it's DAMN HARD to get in these places. It's tougher than getting funding from the NIH, and that's damn nigh impossible. Or procuring an agent. Sigh.

Putting my own stuff out there, I aim high. And get shot down with regularity (17 rejections in two weeks -- ouch!). But even when the occasional acceptance comes through, and you see your words in 'print', it's sort of anti-climactic. I've been wondering why that's so, and I think it's because your words go into this vacuum of sorts; I think I've gotten three personal emails from folks who've read my pieces in 'legit' venues. Posting here, perhaps a hundred responses in total. Sometimes my words strike a nerve, and that is what writing aims to do -- elicit a response.

Speaking of responses, I am losing patience with journals (print in particular) who do not allow sim subs and who take upwards of six months to reject your piece. Some don't even have the courtesy of acknowledging whether they've received your submission! For the most part, I've stopped subbing to these venues; I'd like to get my stuff read before I qualify for Medicare.

Like Ann says, fictionaut pieces do get published elsewhere. For instance, quite a few of the 52/250 stories, including two of mine, have been picked up by other journals. I think deciding whether to publish here and take a chance that your piece will not be picked up elsewhere depends upon your goals: broader readership and instant feedback (important especially to those new to writing, like myself) or building a port-folio for graduate work or a faculty position.

Peace...

David Ackley
Sep 13, 08:41pm

Once I had a story printed in a Little Magazine. Time went by and I wondered if anyone had read it. I asked the editor if anyone had mentioned it. She said one person, but I think she was being kind.

Fictionaut has it all over most magazines in this regard; people do read your work and do react.

Andrew Bowen
Sep 13, 08:55pm

Great subject, David.

My feeling is that there is a time and a place for everything. Fictionaut seems to be a place to test one's story at a time when you personally hit a wall in developing it any further.

Then, after comments and favs and all that jazz, maybe it's ready for the market.

If all you're looking for is commentary on your work however, then why look anywhere else than here?

Seek out mags for credits that hopefully build a resume for a greater end. Seek out mags for some cash. Stroke your ego (or slowly grow one) on Fictionaut.

Marcus Speh
Sep 14, 06:59am

rich discussion. i didn't give an answer to david's title question if fnaut is good or bad for getting published ... definitely not just good but GREAT for publishing. i don't think even a fraction of the entries on my list 2009-2010 (http://blog.marcusspeh.com/?page_id=60) would exist had i not been a member of fictionaut. i'm very grateful to the community for that.

Sam Rasnake
Sep 14, 07:09am

Here, here -

Susan Gibb
Sep 14, 07:31am

Yes, I guess we all wandered off topic a bit, being imaginative and creative people who walk on side trails rather than the boring main path, but yes, I too owe Fictionaut for not only opening those stuck-hard publishing doors, but for the many friends I've made here.

Sly V. Rourke
Sep 14, 08:09am

Everyone, thank you very much for humoring me and responding with such rich, interesting, insightful answers/comments.

From day to day, I go to the extremes when it comes to writing. From 03 to 08 I wrote next to nothing. From 09 thru early 10 I wrote all the time and slept little and read probably 2000 flash pieces if not more...and many longer SS and novels. Fictionaut (yes, including the mentioned "instant gratification" aspect) has changed the way I view online publishing...much like online publishing years ago changed the way I viewed publishing (I don't stand around post offices anymore).

Again, thanks for the wonderful responses.

Neil Serven
Sep 15, 08:42am

I view F’naut as kind of a supplement to the process of submitting for publication. In my case the 3 stories I’ve posted here were ones that, for whatever reason, I didn’t think stood much of a chance to get picked up by an editor but that I thought were still good enough to be worth sharing. The feedback I’ve gotten on them has been incredibly constructive to the overall process of writing (not to mention my confidence). I figured that if someone then came along and felt that one of my F’naut stories was right for their journal, that would be gravy.

I still submit. It still means something to me to have someone choose to publish something I’ve written when they just as easily could have chosen someone else’s. In fact my goal for the summer was to have 2 new stories ready to go out by the time fall reading periods re-opened, and I’m pleased that I came close to the goal. (One of them may end up here instead; still deciding.)

Martha Williams
Sep 17, 01:37pm

Fictionaut has been a great help to me. As a new writer, I was very grateful for the reads and feedback. I was able to try out new writing styles and, within 24 hours, gauge their popularity (or not). I found the more dramatic pieces won more praise than the mellow, subtle ones. But I found that both types were picked up for publication from the Fictionaut pages - so Fictionaut was a great place to meet writers online, read their work, try out voices and styles, and get published.
However, like Marcus and several others, I'm working on a book - so for a while now I will be quieter on the posting front.
I will keep coming on to read, though, and if anyone would like me to read a particular piece, you are welcome to email a link to your story through the Fn message system.

Ann Bogle
Sep 17, 01:58pm

Martha, lovely comment.

Christopher Allen
Sep 20, 11:32am

Fictionaut is great for publishing in my opinion as an editor. I'm always thrilled to find a great piece of writing on FN that hasn't been published yet.

I find myself offering constructive criticism via e-mail since comments on Fictionaut tend to be very supportive and positive.

If a story has already been published, why would a writer want criticism on it? Maybe two departments would be in order on FN? Published and Unpublished?

Regardless of whether FN is good or bad for publishing, it's great for meeting other writers. Lovely people.

Susan Gibb
Sep 20, 11:41am

I second Christopher on the commenting; also placing suggestions in an email unless a) they're just typos or obvious grammar, or b) critique is requested by the writer. And obviously, I don't point out typos on published pieces--that only makes an author feel bad if it's been published that way already.

Sam Rasnake
Sep 20, 12:07pm

You raise an interesting point about published and unpublished, Christopher. Of course, there are groups here where only unpublished material is placed - private groups. I don't post unpublished work to the general wall because of certain venues I may want to submit the work to that recoginize posted work on Internet sites such as FN and the like to be published already.

But, I do post published work to the general wall, and the feedback and criticism has helped me shape manuscripts that I'm working on. So, I need the comments and criticism to the material.

Also, having two public sections - published and unpublished ... in addition to the private groups that are here is a great idea and would be an effective tool for writers and readers.

Ann Bogle
Sep 20, 12:56pm

If certain editors regard posts at Fictionaut as "published," do the same editors give a kind of credit for work that appears at Fictionaut? The process at Fictionaut is unique. I think we might extend credit for comments we give and receive and for fav's as well. On a bio. note I stated that my "new and reprinted work" appears at Fictionaut. I created three small listings in the publications section on my c.v.: writings, stories, and poems that have appeared at Fictionaut since 2009. Does anyone else list Fictionaut as a journal or venue at which work has appeared?

I agree that it might be interesting if we could mark our work "published" and "unpublished." I would like to note that I have reprinted previously published work-- i.e., work in print publications--in internet journals since joining Fictionaut.

Sam Rasnake
Sep 20, 01:21pm

I'll just speak for myself, Ann. At Blue Fifth Review, next month, the issue will feature a work that appeared here at Fictionaut. It's a piece that – when I read it – I immediately I connected with it. It’s just a fresh work that I wanted for Blue Fifth – and the author agreed. So, when it appears there'll be a note that says - first published at Fictionaut. The author also asked me if the work should be taken down from FN, and I said no. I didn’t think it needed to be taken down. I had no problem with that, especially since I already planned to give credit to the site.

In the past ten years, I've only placed maybe three pieces that have been previously published in magazines - Dorianne Laux, Barbara Jane Reyes, and Rebecca Loudon. But this new piece resonated with what I wanted for the issue, and I was not going to pass it up. But I am giving first credit to FN, which is, for me - and I stress that it's just my view, the right thing to do.

Susan Gibb
Sep 20, 06:11pm

Personally, I do not consider anything I post here at Fictionaut as a publishing credit since nobody stopped me from posting it, it was not selected to be published by anyone but me. However, I fully understand why an editor might consider it as "published" for their purposes because they are seeking first publishing rights.

Easy enough to just say that the author not post anything that may affect further submission and possible publication.

stephen hastings-king
Sep 20, 06:27pm

I'm still getting my sea legs here and this discussion is both interesting and useful for me. So thanks, first off.

It seems to me that Fn occupies a genuinely ambiguous place in the published yes/no matter. I've not been inclined to see what I put here as published. But from time to time I've asked myself if I came to this conclusion based on anything or if I simply decided this was the case because I appreciate the community, the feedback and positive reinforcement very much and decided to enter into the collective. Finding ways to be maladroit even.

But the underlying question really is: what does "being published" understood to mean at this point? I don't think that much beyond inertia keeps this a settled-seeming question. Definitions like that are sociological questions. An originary point in any sociological question is the self-definitions worked out by the community (-ies) that are involved with a particular practice. So I would think the question open until there's some sort of consensus amongst the folk here about whether posting a story is publishing it or not.

I note a range of positions here and find myself personally drawn to Anne's above, to make a distinct category for Fn on my writer vita. But that's a default position.

If we wanted to, we could pose the question back to ourselves then.

Are you publishing a story when you post it to Fictionaut?

Personally, I think I'm making a piece available to a community. But what else is publication than making material available to a community?

I don't think the answer is straightforward. But maybe it'd be interesting to take it on.

Sam Rasnake
Sep 20, 07:30pm

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what I think as a writer as to whether work posted here is published or not. And, there won't be a problem with my posted material until I attempt to submit it to a venue that does view work posted at FN to be published. Then, I realize the problem. I might then say I don't agree and I'll submit the work elsewhere to a venue that doesn't have a probmlem with it.

It's a murky area - especially since I do know of cases where an editor asked that work accepted for publication - or work that won an award - be taken down from FN.

There is no universal here. And I don't think there will be - nor do I want one. We will do as we do. No more, no less.

stephen hastings-king
Sep 20, 08:05pm

It wouldn't necessarily matter what you or I as individuals think when we're sitting around. But a community is in a position to define itself and what it does. In this case, the Fn community can decide that, for it, posting a story is not publishing (or the opposite) and that could be integrated into how the space presents itself. That would matter more. Theoretically anyway. But that assumes folk have an interest in the process of self-definition. And there's no requirement of that.

Paula Ray
Sep 20, 09:00pm

Post unpublished work on a public forum? If you want to see that work published, don't do it.

Publically post previously published work under consideration for a collection? Yes, especially on a forum where fellow writers offer valuable feedback.

Is posting work on a public forum considered "published"? Only the editor with the power to reject or accept can answer that.

If you're happy with seeing your work only posted on Fictionaut, I suspect that's a phase and sooner or later you're going to want to place that work elsewhere and may regret limiting yourself.

Better safe than sorry.

David Ackley
Sep 20, 09:27pm

About a month ago, the post " A list of magazines accepting stuff...posted on Fictionaut" offered said list,attested to by the editors of the respective magazines. It's not a long list, and they may be more the exception than the rule but there are some to turn to.

James Lloyd Davis
Sep 20, 09:36pm

So, this is a phase? Something we'll grow out of as our goals mature?

Interesting viewpoint.

Paula Ray
Sep 20, 10:06pm

It's a good policy to keep your options open.

I think there is a possiblity some writers who are content with only posting their work on Fictionaut may change their minds about that later.

As to whether you call it a phase or not, I don't know. I certainly didn't intend to portray a condescending tone. Forgive me if that is how it seemed.

Sam Rasnake
Sep 20, 11:08pm

Stephen, I agree with you that the FN community - and it certainly is that - can somehow reach a view that, say, most of the writers who place work here consider the work published or don't consider the work published. That decision, by the way, would be from the writers and readers here and not from Fictionaut itself, and not from the administrators here.

But, no matter what the decision might be, that would have nothing to do with how editors or venues, print or online, outside this community view the work. That's up to them, and not FN.

Still, I think we should - as you point out - reach an official view of the subject so that writers already here and new writers to come will know what should and should not be posted - depending on their goals for the work. I agree that it's important that we define ourselves. I like that. As to how this would or could be done, I don't know. Something for the future.

Christopher Allen
Sep 21, 01:31am

Hey, lovely people. I said this when the subject came up a couple of months ago, but I'll say it again for others who've joined the discussion.

Anyone can view Fictionaut without a password, so you aren't merely posting it to a community. In the eyes of many editors, your work has been published (available for all to see). That said, I personally agree with Susan Gibb that a work is published when someone besides the writer chooses it to be seen by all. In this respect, Fictionaut is neither fish nor foul.

As several of you know, I've experienced the justified wrath of an editor myself. Lesson learned. If you want to be safe, post stories and poetry on Fictionaut only after the work has gone into the archives of the site where it was published.

In my case, the editor and I reached an amicable compromise. She allowed me to post an excerpt from the story with a link to the ezine. I think this is an excellent middle ground for writers trying to send readers to the ezines who publish their work.

Marcus Speh
Sep 21, 02:43am

i am very interested in the point stephen hastings-king made on the community being able to re-define itself (without having to do so). judging from the comments, i doesn't seem that others really understood what he was getting at (or at least they're not responding): most people here seem to be caught up in an old style publishing mode where editors determine the fate of publications. please indulge me and let my thoughts roam freely for a moment ...

however, what i see happening in the publishing world at large (with which i'm well connected not as a writer but as a consultant and academic having been at the forefront of these developments for 20 years) is the emergence of a new, though not fantastic, community-based model whose commercial viability (from the point of view of the publishing houses or even mags) is not clear yet. despite this (temporary - somebody is going to figure it out) shortcoming, i am certain that the community-model is the future.

in that time to come (sooner rather than later), a moderately successful author will generate a handsome income because he's got 100,000 readers/fans world-wide each of whom is happy to pay $1.00 (not $9.99, not $27.95) for access to said author's work (serialised as in Dickens’ day or not). this author is not even what we used to call best-selling - these top guns will have 100 million readers at the minimum. our only moderately successful author is a member of several communities of no less than 1,000 members each and his web site gets 10,000 hits a week. (by comparison, the hugely successful author's site gets 10,000,000 hits a week).

in our scenario, fictionaut, an example for such a community that's really a small virtual world of creatives and consumers of creative products, will have 10,000 subscribers and about 100 active writers at any time.

coming back to editors and publications: in this world, editors will be lucky to get the author's permission to reprint stuff. any surviving magazine is the centre of a community rather than an editor's ego trumpet. much more important than being read is being discussed, generating comments, reviews, creative followers, kicking off comments that reach other communities, other shores of the continuous discourse that, let's be honest, very, very few magazines (on- or offline) generate or enjoy these days.

but as i said, they're ghosts of the past from where i stand. while i respect, empathise with and love getting published in the old world, i also welcome the new type of editor and magazine - many of which are active members of the fictionaut community - and i enjoy seeing them becoming more flexible without sacrificing their artistic integrity. you see, to me fictionaut is a trailblazer community - a little like a mashup of facebook and a magazine with a lot of potential to be more than either of them.

Sam Rasnake
Sep 21, 05:56am

So, Marcus - if I'm the ghost (and there's something wrong with that ... I should be the thing with no name, but that's another story), and you're the vampire - that's a given ... Who's the werewolf? Is it Meg or Sheldon? I keep forgetting. Gary's Van Helsing, so you'd better watch out.

Boo

Point well made, and point well taken.

Darryl Price
Sep 21, 06:25am

I want to jump into this discussion but only because all of you seem to be having so much fun splashing around. Fictionaut is a springboard, a workshop and a magazine in the broadest sense of the word. It's also an organic entity--constantly changing its head and hands to fit the moment. I think a writer should use every avenue to speak their work into the universe. It's okay. Fictionaut is not a rock to hide your stuff under.It's a bubble we're all floating in and depending on the wind's direction and the angle of the sun some of us shine more than others from time to time. So? It's big and getting bigger. Be yourself and let it be. You will be noticed and you will be forgotten and you will be noticed again. That's life. But keep up the work--Fictionaut affords you the place to do just that--and if nice things like getting published come out of it then you are lucky--so be grateful and move on to your next piece of writing.Fictionaut will be there to give you some ground(ing) if needs be. But it's not the writer--you are.There's a zillion critics no matter what you do or how you do it.Again, so? You are an original person in a unique position in a truly fascinating community of creative people when you are on Fictionaut. The rest is up to you and Murphy's law.

stephen hastings-king
Sep 21, 06:59am

Thanks for pushing things into the more explicit, Marcus.

That editors are in a position to functionally impose definitions of being-published--and that these vary--simply demonstrates that this is a sociological matter. I still like Pierre Bourdieu's notion of cultural power as the ability to impose definitions like that---the lists that critics make go from "stuff that I like" to something with influence as a function of the position occupied within a given field of cultural production.

it seems to me that the field(s) of cultural production associated with creative/experimental writing are in considerable flux. From the angle I've been tracking in terms of form, there's been a return to book form and a proliferation of new electronic or mixed format journals that operate in a more-or-less traditional form with new people behind the various wheels. The move into artist's books seemed to me about re-defining the possibilties of the form in a context where some of its traditional social functions were coming into question from the talk about new media (rather than from the emergence of a new model for e-book or its equivalent that's become dominant). The move to create more journals seems mostly about attempts to combine the advantages of a decentralization of cultural production with a desire to continue using the resulting forms as instruments of legitimation. (btw one can say all this and still endorse both general moves). There are other things, like the expansion of the roles of sound, but that's a matter for another day.

The journals in particular remain traditional in their structure/organization because of their primary social function: the legitimation ("consecration" in bourdieu-speak) of new work, which legitimates the journal which in turn enables it to legitimate more work. The result of this process is the quasi-natural (or natural-seeming) stratification of a cultural field through niche-generation. It's quasi-natural because what drives it--the rituals of legitimation---are taken in that way. My suspicion is that this happens more or less by default: there's no centralized Legitimation Factory that stamps out protocols for determining what it means, so people operate by following the models they've seen and assume that they're necessary because, seemingly, they're functional. A legitimation is the extending of already-extant lists to include new variable.

Back in the day, this all had pretty clear-seeming symbolic-economic contexts--you know, cash rules everything around me, get the money one way or another, be it out there in direct economic exchange or be it mediated through the accumulation of predicates that impact on one's academic standing or ability to put more stuff out, get more residencies, make installations and performances or whatever. to get over.

Legitimation is a ritual that enables a piece to be situated as ok for consumption by a particular demographic. it assures something about fit and fit is taken as an indicator of quality. A journal operates usually in a style, that style is extended or adapted, a piece assimilated into it. The editor operates as magickal social guarantor of the coherence of this process. Like peer review is supposed to do (another process that's coming apart and finds itself in a similar position as is outlined here).

In experimental music the collapse of more traditional forms of distribution and stratification of consumption has opened onto a new world of niches. Beans-and-rice tours and a kind of separation of markets. There's not a whole lot of media that tell people what they're allowed to like if the want to be personality x or y and evince that through their consumption patterns. At the same time, there's alot more locally controlled productions going on and alot of innovative scene-building at these local levels. Recordings are more seen for what they are from a musician's viewpoint: commercials for gigs, merch to hawk at shows. I mention this because it seems to me that this is much further along in terms of adapting to a changed environment of cultural production than writers are in terms of developing new structures. Of course no-one's making a whole lot of money. When the revolution comes, all this "monetization" business won't be such a big deal. At the same time, it's a little grim knowing that the message "Don't Quit Your Day Job" is so obvious that no-one bothers to say it. Well, you can...you know the drill...

All this to say that older forms of publication are in a problematic situation, but the possibilities opened by this aren't being taken advantage of so much because, it seems, that most outlets that "publish" do so with the traditional legitimation functionalities in mind, which requires that they adopt a traditional format.

This is where I think Fn is potentially quite different. And all this lay behind the post above.

Right now, it seems that the range of responses is a mirror of the persistence of the idea of what legitimation of work is. And at one level or another, chances are that we're all interested in legitimation. Someone said that the difference between a professional and amateur artist is that the former is inclined to show work, so put it out there, so engage in the process of symbolic identity formation through the process of being-integrated into one or another list (or several lists).

Personally, I don't particular see Fn as publishing stuff at this point because I am working out ways of operating that are new for me and still in the process of figuring out what works and what doesn't. Since alot of the game is predicated on being able to predict more or less how readers react in order to cut off or tamper with the responses, the feedback is invaluable. Better still that it comes from an engaged and informed and (largely) sympathetic community whose own practices incline them to get the jokes. If there are consequences in the wider field that follow from this in terms of pieces coming to be seen as already published because they're here, that's fine.

But that's default. And that's as far as my thinking has gotten about Fn in particular. I'll likely have more thinkings as experience affords me the chance to see in more detail how things work.

David Ackley
Sep 21, 07:59am

I liked your comment, Marcus: to paraphrase (once again)Pogo: We have met the future and we are it.

But one of the sidenotes to consider is that when we talk about magazines and editors we're talking about ourselves in a way. To find validation from publishing in a magazine that exists because someone like me decided to gin it up because they felt like having an online magazine--pretty easy to do, evidently--seems a little self deceptive.

Marcus Speh
Sep 21, 08:22am

@david: i had to look "pogo" up (that's old world, too...but i like it; in actual fact: i googled) - lol. the enemy is indeed within us. always been that way: any generation with self-respect enables future generations to kill it and carries itself with dignity when the moment comes to say good-bye to its own cosy, well-known world...(sigh).

@stephen: fascinating post. i just knew there was more under the hood of your remark and i feel gratified having heard it. i liked bourdieu more when i was a closet artist. still, his analytic tools are sharp and you certainly know how to wield them: the example of the music industry is a good one - it was on my mind, too. adaptation to a "changed environment of cultural production" as an agenda for writers who will lead the way rather than follow (much like musicians have).

@darryl: i like how you manage to ground a heady debate in danger of strangling itself ...like your marvelous poetry!

@sam: hehe...i scared myself this morning ... i've got no teeth worth mentioning, actually. just having some fun thinking out loud. (so is gary p. sharpening sticks to drive through the heart of prospective bloodsuckers?)

Marcus Speh
Sep 21, 08:26am

@david there's still a case to be made for external validation, assessment of quality etc. if i understand you correctly - point well taken.

stephen hastings-king
Sep 21, 08:55am

@ david: talking about the mechanisms of legitimation isn't the same as rejecting the idea of it. it's just talking about mechanisms.

@marcus: thanks. two other quick things.

The question of legitimation tends toward the issues in academic-land surrounding peer review as well. Sociologica is an Italian sociology journal that's experimenting with an discussion-based alternative to peer review which is faster, more transparent and less (differentially) hostile to innovative work at the level of form. Here's a link:

http://www.sociologica.mulino.it/journal/issue/index/Issue/Journal:ISSUE:9

Were Fn to decide that posting for the collective is not publishing exactly, one way to make the distinction operative is to spin off a platform that would be more like publishing out of the collective and out of the collective model of working that's already in place. Adapting this kind of model is an option. So's a parallel structure that's called "Interpretive Collaboration Review"...

http://elpub.scix.net/cgi-bin/works/Show?299_elpub2008

I like the idea of getting away from the top-down blind review process and making the workings more transparent.

On experimental music scenes and their organization (a space I've been involved with for much longer than I've been doing the sort of writing that drew me here) check out Philadelphia.

Susan Gibb
Sep 21, 11:10am

Jumping right back in here, we as a collective group with the headmaster's permission can define "published" any way we want; editors and publishers can still say "nope, I saw it already at .... and don't want it now."

I concede their right to define "published" any way they choose. After all, it's their mag and their reputation on the line. Therefore, I would always suggest a caveat to the hopeful authors.

(As an aside to Marcus: What'd I say at FB, about writers needing to have the last word? Proven here and so far, with this post, I win!)

Susan Gibb
Sep 21, 11:12am

Oh yeah, and on the flip side of "published," I'm hard-ass enough to not consider self-publishing the same as being published.

Susan Gibb
Sep 21, 11:15am

Oh yeah again, as to the original question, I'd say it helps to post work here to establish yourself as a writer who may just happen to catch the eye of an editor looking for new work. If pleasing your fellow writers is not enough of a goal, then at the very least, you are showcasing your work and establishing your style.

James Lloyd Davis
Sep 21, 01:46pm

This thread certainly turned lively. So much here to consider.

I agree that this is an excellent web site, the best for diversity of membership and for the serious nature of most of the writers here, serious in terms of motivation. Humorists and satirists, of course, can be deadly serious.

One of the greatest benefits I've derived since I was invited here, was the opportunity to experiment with new forms and voices. It helps me greatly to determine in advance what works and what doesn't. Sort of like having an R & D lab for the building blocks of novels ... quality control, eh? And ... you can discern impact as much from the lack of response as you can from the comment and/or fave system.

To be sure, it's never been my expectation that some publisher will see my work and that I'd get offers, contracts, book deals thrown at me via email. However, I've published two small pieces through this site and received invitations to submit, so the exposure can't hurt. I don't feel like a rhinestone cowboy yet, but heck ... (I don't normally say 'heck' but you know what I mean. This is a Forum, after all.)

And, of course, the fact that some of the most lively, inventive work I've seen online passes through on a daily basis is reason enough to be here.

And that's not all!!!

Every once in a while, as evidenced here, there are brilliant, well-informed conversations concerning the future of what we all love.

Thank you all.

Keep talking.

Matt Dennison
Sep 21, 02:36pm

"It helps me greatly to determine in advance what works and what doesn't."

Keeping in mind that that is only true for those who respond.

Be

VERY

VERY

CAREFUL

about altering your work in any way (above and beyond typos, etc.) based on feedback, good or bad.

Marcus Speh
Sep 21, 03:46pm

matt, let me give you some feedback here: shouldn't you also capitalise the word 'Be' in your last post? ... as my daughter (9) says to me: "shouldawouldacoulda, daddy". ;-))

Matt Dennison
Sep 21, 05:18pm

Point proven!

;-)

James Lloyd Davis
Sep 21, 05:38pm

I should add that the only advice I ever really took was from my Dad when he said, "Son, if God wanted people t'fly, he'd of given us wings. You stay off the roof and don't ever, ever do that again."

Matt Dennison
Sep 21, 06:11pm

Ha!

Christopher Allen
Sep 23, 02:38pm

I understand the argument of creating a NEW era of "publishing," a new breed of pubished story. I want that as much as anyone else. It's a one in a million shot, however, that one of us hits pay dirt this way. That's the reality. We promote our chapbooks to thousands of facebook friends, and twelve purchase them. (Oh, god, I'm the voice of death, I know.)

Marcus, I want to believe in that world where I can sell my HILARIOUS SATIRE to a hundred thousand readers for a euro each. I really need to believe in that world. I WANT to enjoy the demise of the publishing industry. Hahahahahahaha. But I can't. It's about five years away. Call me in five years.

:)
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