Forum / To: Jurgen, Carson and the Advisory Board: Fictionaut needs Ficsing

David Ackley
May 19, 06:35pm

Maybe it would help if everyone who thinks Fictionaut needs fixing signed on here. Reasons for thinking so are fine, but please belay the complaining and temptations to invective: all of us owe more to Jurgen and Carson for building us this fine home for our work than we've suffered from its few leaks and creaks. I just hope that a sense of how widespread the concern is will trigger a response.

Carol Reid
May 19, 06:52pm

I'd like it fixed, natch. I've had some very interesting experiences and opportunities at and through this place. It's been much more good than not good, certainly.

Gary Hardaway
May 19, 07:39pm

The problems with invitations and email notifications (I enjoy them; others don't but can opt out of them) seem to be interlinked and are the only items that "need" to be fixed. I love the site but miss the two features noted.

Sally Houtman
May 19, 07:44pm

The lack of new invites will eventually suffocate the community. It can't thrive unless the windows can be open.

The lack of concern over this, and its eventual repercussions on the community, in addition to the lack of responsiveness to repeated cries for help are, for me, the greatest concern.

This place has been an invaluable creative (and social) outlet for me. One I would greatly miss.

Hence the reason this is all very sad.

Charlotte Hamrick
May 19, 09:05pm

I've been here a little over a year and have made invaluable contacts and found writers and editors that have enriched my experience here and my writing life. I'm very happy to have been invited.

I am,however, frustrated that I can't invite anyone to join this community and that I don't get notifications. As I said on a previous thread, the search under the "People" tab is horribly broken. I get this message when I try to search a name :

"Sorry, our server choked on your last request."

This is a tool readers who are not participants here should be able to utilize.

Many of us want the site to be functional and flourish. I hope it will.

Amanda Harris
May 19, 09:28pm

Fictionaut has allowed me to network, to become a better writer and more importantly, to make me feel like I am heard.

I owe a lot to this website. I would hate to see it go under.

James Lloyd Davis
May 19, 09:32pm

Maybe it's time to take the complaints outside Fictionaut itself and bring attention around to the board members and past participants. These are people who recognize its intrinsic value, some of whom list Fictionaut affiliation on their resumes and may have an interest in saving it.

It's obvious they don't pay attention within the community itself, so maybe those of you who Facebook and Tweet could point out that there is interest within the community to save a valuable resource to literary writers before it goes south.

Emails could help, too.

Also, as in every form of advocacy, there is need for more than words. If you have an interest in saving Fictionaut, you should consider lending support personally and communicating that to the ownership.

There's more than a few alumni who've gone on to bigger things, but they might be willing to become a more active advisory board if that's required. Technical help is a problem, but nothing's insurmountable. Some great ideas were spawned here. Maybe it's time revisit them...

Remember this? http://www.fictionaut.com/wordpress/2011/02/01/introducing-fictionaut-selects/

Fictionaut was and is a unique literary community online and it deserves better than lip service.

James Lloyd Davis
May 20, 02:35am

Or not... whatever.

whatwouldbukowskido
May 20, 03:46am

The only thing
this site needs
is the restoration
of the invitations
(not political instigation).

James Lloyd Davis
May 20, 04:34am

Like I said.... whatever.

Ann Bogle
May 20, 07:16am

Is something wrong?

I solved my entry difficulties yesterday by using my Windows (on Firefox) drop-down menu -- that let me in to my signed-on pages. Thank the main eight as well as the five women who sprang from Adam.

David Ackley
May 20, 12:25pm

I'd also be happy to have invitations restored. The group I administer, Bear Pit, wants new members but we can't do it without an invitation mechanism .

Frankly, even an explanation would help a lot.

Chris Okum
May 20, 04:29pm

I'll be right here until they pull the plug on Fictionuat, which happens to be the most elegant writing website I know of. If the God who created this place has left us to our own devices then we are only experiencing a localized version of our universal predicament.

Sally Houtman
May 20, 09:05pm

Don't worry, Chris! It's you and me to the bitter end.

If we must, together we will repopulate the website!

:)

James Lloyd Davis
May 21, 01:57am

There's a pregnant statement if ever I heard one.

David Ackley
May 21, 01:05pm

Here is what I've heard: Fixing the site would require a complete revamping. This is second or third hand, entirely unofficial, but I think is probably true. If it is, it probably won't happen soon, if ever.

Here's something to think about in the absence of "new blood," for Fictionaut. What if everyone who cares, contacted someone they know ( or even don't know) who hasn't been active lately on Fictionaut and asked them to post their work. There are hundreds out there whose work would be great to see, whose presence would add to the mix, as it may have in the past. And what about all those who joined but never posted work? Maybe they'd like to be asked.

whatwouldbukowskido
May 21, 01:57pm

"Fixing the site would require a complete revamping"

That's become the 'accepted' truth, but my gut reaction tells me it's Corporate BS.

Along the lines of a parent too lazy to go Christmas shopping explaining to the child there won't be any Christmas this year because Santa's sleigh is broken and it's such a special sleigh that no one knows how to fix it...

Although I personally know nothing about writing code and all that, I don't see how it would be THAT DAMN DIFFICULT to reactivate something that for approx. 3 years was working just fine.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As far as new names go, I think everyone should just change their username every few months.

I might even try it myself!

Carol Reid
May 21, 03:09pm

Fixing the invite feature may not be all that difficult but even my limited experience trying to fix computer program malfunctions has taught how time-consuming it can be, and it's never just one thing, it's an unravelling of a mass of knots at best.

My information about the site requiring complete revamping to get working again came from Michelle Elvy, who may weigh in on the subject tomorrow. She's not a site administrator but she may have closer to first hand info than I have.

I don't think there's anything corporate going on, just people who have to choose how best to spend their time. No more or less than that. I usually try to work around systems that aren't working for me and I still think recycling inactive accounts can work, although I also like David's idea and even if it only results in a temporary flurry, it would be great to read some work by people who haven't posted in a while.

My main concern these days is the stasis in the Bear Pit, whose numbers we can't increase without the invite feature. I'm going to look into making an offsite Bear Pit and see how that goes...

Charlotte Hamrick
May 21, 03:32pm

If the offline Bear Pit comes to fruition, remember me. I never received the several invitations to join it here. It would be great to be involved in a group whose participants check in and are involved.

I just found that 3 people have commented on a story of mine that I didn't know about. Because notifications don't work. I hate to be a hard-ass but if a site's administrators aren't going to keep the site in working order, what's the point? I think it shows a disregard for the participants. I've given up the reins on a site myself because I couldn't keep it running efficiently. It's what you do. Fix it or turn it over to someone who cares.

My mouth is going to get me in trouble. Again.

David Ackley
May 21, 03:41pm

That would be the Corporate BS of the giant Fictionaut corporation with its legions of cubicled techies idling away, waiting to be set loose on the latest glitch. Rather than say, the real Fictionaut with its volunteer staff of one, Carson, who probably has an actual life of his own, that may not allow for all that this fix would require.

I don't know, Matt, but do you think it's really such a bad idea to try to re-engage all the good people who've dropped by the wayside?

whatwouldbukowskido
May 21, 04:12pm

By "Corporate" I didn't mean to imply Fnaut was, in fact, a corporation, just that it seems to be the official stance that simply restoring a once-functioning utility is too-overwhelming
to even consider.

Even when not to restore the utility means the gradual withering of a site that so much energy was put into to create in the first place.

Which I think is...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

RE recycling inactive accounts, the only way to find out if it works is to try. You can't just TAKE someone's account, BUT if there is someone who wants to invite someone and has had no luck going the conventional route, I say give it a shot.

Find an account that has never posted a work, contact that person and see if they'd be willing to work with you.

The only drawback to this is the simple fact that if the person is inactive on the site, they will not log in to see the message in the first place, AND, since there are no email notifications, odds are they will remain unaware of the entire thing...

David Ackley
May 21, 04:38pm

Yeah, there is that thing with the messages. I was thinking more, though of the people who'd been active in the past, seeing if they were interested in putting up some of their stuff of recent vintage. There are a few whose e-mails I have, others might be reachable through their blogs...Just a thought, not a big cure-all for other ailments.

whatwouldbukowskido
May 21, 05:24pm

Give 'em a call!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think, ultimately, in spite of these very real concerns, it's best just to focus on what's good about Fnaut, which is, as Chris said above: "the most elegant writing website I know of".

I tried the two other writing sites that Carol posted and found them unbearable.

And I have noticed work posted recently by people who haven't been here in awhile, Alex Austin, for one...

Sally Houtman
May 21, 08:52pm

David - go for it.

I, too, checked out the two sites Carol noted above. The first came off like a hard-core sales pitch, catering to writers at 'all levels' with links to help with proper semicolon use...I ran away. Really fast. The second froze my computer screen.

I think we're all in agreement with Chris' comment.

It's difficult to imagine that the e-mail notification/invite function requires a total revamp. This in light of the fact that this very thing has gone down intermittently in the past and been restored rather quickly.

It's one thing not to have time to attend to these matters. That I get. However, the lack of response, communication, concern...that I don't get. A simple reply in the Forum with an explanation would go a long way to at least making the members feel they've not been abandoned.

In my opinion.

Recycling old accounts does work. But, as was said above and in previous threads, it requires someone to have contact with an inactive member outside the Fnaut message system to negotiate the takeover.

If anyone does have contact outside Fnaut with inactive members they feel would be willing to hand over their accounts, it would be much appreciated. From what I've read recently, there are a lot of eager people waiting to get in.

And yes, I've also noticed the presence of some people who haven't been around in a while. And really enjoying their work.

I've said my piece. Again.

:)

whatwouldbukowskido
May 21, 09:15pm

As David said above, the opinion that to restore invites and email notifications would require revamping the entire system IS only second and third-hand information.

I've never heard Jurgen say it.
I've never heard Carson say it.

It seems to me that the above utilities are contained in a string of computer code written and implemented years ago that (along with the formatting) worked just fine for about four years.

THEN the system was "revamped" which resulted in the loss of the Holy Trinity:

Invites
Email notifications
Formatting

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But again, the site seems rather active at the moment, I see old members returning, so all is not lost.

Charlotte Hamrick
May 21, 10:28pm

Here's another thing to consider. "New blood" would join this site with certain expectations like a site that has a working infrastructure. I'm speaking as a relative newcomer who doesn't know how it used to be. I just know I expected all the things that don't work would work. There a lot of young, tech savvy writers/readers who will find these idiosyncrasies annoying enough not to stay.
JMO.

Jürgen Fauth
May 22, 09:19am

Hey guys -- I'm trying to get a hold of Carson to get things going again.

I do share the concern over the site's health, I'm just not entirely sure what to do to fix it. I'm not a tech person, so I'm 100% reliant on Carson's help with these issues.

What I can say about the tech side of things is this: Fictionaut is custom-built from scratch on Ruby on Rails--it's not any kind of pre-existing CMS or anything like that. So fixing things may not require rebuilding from scratch, but it does require someone with Carson's skills. Something I had to learn was that things that worked once can break if Ruby is updated etc, so that there's a fair amount of work necessary just to maintain things as they are.

I've long been wondering if there may not be some alternative for taking the site forward (or at least keep it fully functioning), perhaps by crowdfunding, applying for grants etc. If you have any ideas in that regard, please don't hesitate to contact me.

One thing I *can* do is assign invites to users. But from what I understand, that isn't the problem, right? They invites don't actually send, is that correct?

And I agree with Charlotte, it's a big turn-off if features that are supposed to work don't.

Sally Houtman
May 22, 10:17am

Thanks, Jurgen. This is frustrating for everyone.

"They invites don't actually send, is that correct?"

That's correct. We have invites. We send invites. They display in the 'sent invites' area, yet they never reach the recipient.

This affects invites to potential new members as well as invites to private groups. Thus the groups stagnate as new members can't join and, ultimately, the same will happen to the community.

I think we're all in agreement that the site is important to us, and will do what we can to help out.

Any techies out there?

James Lloyd Davis
May 22, 01:08pm

I was locked out of Fictionaut for about 12 hours, couldn't log in. Thought maybe someone was working on the program. Sorry to hear that nothing can be done. Must have been a temporary glitch.

James Lloyd Davis
May 22, 01:25pm

As for getting the thing fixed... How much would it cost? Be nice to have a figure to work with. Nothing's all that insurmountable if enough people are willing to get involved.

I wouldn't mind putting up money to save it as part of a pool of donors, but no one's ever going to step up without a specific goal. Grants or crowdfunding is an idea, but even there, you have to have a specific target just to approach a source. Someone needs to get a quote and quotes begin with access to the program. Someone needs to coordinate the effort.

James Lloyd Davis
May 22, 01:31pm

If you like Fictionaut and want to keep it working, are you willing to pay for it? Are you willing to offer time to get involved?

Maybe the membership needs to be tapped. But no one's going to do anything unless someone asks the right questions. Any such effort needs a leader and a firm core.

David Ackley
May 22, 02:48pm

I'd donate to Fictionaut's support in a New York minute, whatever way it's worked out.

whatwouldbukowskido
May 22, 03:21pm

I started a forum thread back in early 2012 called "Is it a money thing?" re the loss of utilities, indicating I would be willing to kick in a few bucks a month if that was what it took to bring back full functionality.

I don't recall it getting much traction.

I pay (gladly) five bucks a months for Duotrope's. I think it's been a huge success for them, but then again, their system was working perfectly when the change came.

There's a chance that the time for charging for the site has passed, should have been implemented when everything was running at top speed.

Also, it would be hard to convince new members to pay to join a site that isn't functioning properly in the hopes it might in the future.

It's going to be complicated, when money gets involved, but as I've said many times, I'd kick in a few buckles a month if that's what it took.

Lillian Ann Slugocki
May 22, 04:12pm

I love fictionaut-- it is, I agree, the most elegant and the most unique of all writing platforms. I do go away for awhile, but when I began writing a new piece, or collection, I always start here, and would be heartbroken if it went away. I would be happy to be involved in a team of people working on this, it's way too valuable to lose. and also I agree, what is the $$$ amount to get it rolling again, and would work on a crowdfunding campaign if that's what it took, as well.

James Lloyd Davis
May 22, 04:23pm

I'm having trouble logging in and accessing Fictionaut right now, but if someone is interested in restoring the web site, I will be glad to help, not just with $$$, but with some sort of involvement at any level.

I have written grant requests, though not for many years, and I can build a spread sheet for budget projections, etc...

If my problem with access can be fixed, I'd be glad to get involved in any way deemed useful.

whatwouldbukowskido
May 22, 05:04pm

Jurgen's reply from a different thread (so it doesn't go unnoticed):

"As I just posted in another thread, there's not much I can do without tech help. Carson's exceedingly busy (and at the moment, hard to reach), so my hands are pretty much tied. I think it's a freakin' shame because I love this site and put years of work into it, but I'm not sure what to do at this point.

What it comes down to, in the starkest terms, is money. Fictionaut needs coding just to continue to function properly, and unless you can find someone as talented and dedicated as Carson who is willing to work for the glory, coding costs money. The ads never brought in anything close to what we'd need. We've spent hundreds of hours discussing alternatives -- our own publishing ventures, crowdfunding, grants, investors, a premium model -- but so far nothing seemed viable.

I agree that Fictionaut is worth preserving, and that it does have its own unique flavor and culture -- something we spent a lot of time nurturing over the years. I'd hate to see it shut down or break completely.

But I don't see an easy, obvious solution either. Any ideas & comments are very much welcome."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think, as several others have stated, that if you could come up with a concrete, real-world dollar amount as to what it would take to rewrite the code, and if that amount is realistically obtainable, that enough people here would donate towards the goal.

Carson Baker
May 22, 05:11pm

Hey guys. I'm working on this at the moment. I'll post in this thread when I have the issues fixed.

Sally Houtman
May 23, 01:07am

Who was that masked man?

:)

David Ackley
May 23, 03:58pm

I think Carson will get these problems with invitations and hopefully the messaging system sorted out.

Jurgen suggested that the longer term question, how does Fictionaut keep going, (and even improve) is still open, since a funding structure hasn't really been put in place yet. It may be that some things are indeed for free, but free doesn't guarantee survival: Money helps. Once the present problems get resolved I think we should take Jurgen at his word and start trying to come up with ideas for sources of funding, along with people who are willing to work on carrying any ideas to fruition.

Amanda Harris
May 23, 07:47pm

Just tweeted to Jurgen earlier that I'm having problems logging onto my account. Is anyone else getting an error message?

Sally Houtman
May 23, 07:54pm

David, I agree.

Amanda - I was just about to say the same thing.

Starting yesterday, I'm only intermittently able to get on the site. Keep getting the 'server choked' message, or, if I do get on the site, I'm logged out and get the same 'server choked' message when I try to log in.

The only way I'm able to get on the site logged in is to google a specific page then click the link to that page.

But I still can't view the main page.

I hope this is a sign Carson is working on things.

And I hope it's temporary.

James Lloyd Davis
May 23, 09:32pm

I've been having the same problem as Sally getting on. In the meantime, I've gone ahead and joined the Facebook brigade... out of sheer boredom.

This has happened before when Carson started working on the web site and it went away when he was finished, so I'm sure it's temporary.

In the meantime I think those of us who are willing to help get Fictionaut back up to speed on a permanent basis ought to get together at some point along the way and do something concrete.

I'm willing to put my undernourished wallet and my vast, though limited amount of spare time on the table in any way that will help.

A bunch of people with similar limited resources can make a difference. When the web site is back up to speed, let's get serious and talk.

Charlotte Hamrick
May 23, 11:17pm

Well, I'm finally logged in so I want to say, real quick, that I'm willing to contribute cash and time to the cause so keep me in mind. Thanks to Jurgen and Carson for the update!

whatwouldbukowskido
May 23, 11:27pm

I never lost the ability to log in, but now cannot access the "add a story" function...

Anyone else trying to add a "story"?

Sally Houtman
May 24, 12:39am

The phrase "Fictionaut is like a box of chocolates..." comes to mind.

I seem to be back at full function (touches wood).

When I was locked out, I switched from Firefox to IE and was able to get in.

If this helps anyone having log-in trouble, switching browsers might at least be a temporary workaround.

David Ackley
May 24, 12:56am

Well, that worked. Thanks Sally.

Carson Baker
May 24, 03:15am

Earlier this evening I made some changes to the server infrastructure that should help with reliability. If you're still having issues with logging in, or anything like that, please email carson@fictionaut.com, so I can get a better sense of what's up.

Anyway, sorry for the troubles, guys. Next thing for me to figure out is how to keep the email deliveries and invitations flowing. I'll post updates as I figure stuff out.

Thanks for the patience.

Sally Houtman
May 24, 04:19am

Thanks so much, Carson. Your efforts, and the updates, are greatly appreciated.

Frankie Saxx
May 24, 10:00am

You're a star, Carson! xoxo

Frankie Saxx
May 24, 10:03am

@ Carol

RE considering how to do a private workshop

I've been doing a sort of scene exchange with a writing pal. We're using a private WordPress blog, just posting the writing as a new post and discussing it in the comments. So far it is working really well. I expect it would accomodate a larger group pretty easily.

(And if you do something like that, I'm "frankiesachs" on WordPress. XD )

eamon byrne
May 24, 12:07pm

Noone has mentioned formatting. This for me is the site's weakness. I used to post pieces in html, which gave me perfect formatting - full justification, font size, font type, line width, line height, everything. But at some point the site stopped accepting this. At least I couldn't seem to get it to work. So I stopped posting.

Correctly formatted writing is vitally important for a writer - I can't understand how people can accept scrolling down columns of ragged and badly fonted text.

With today's browser technology, a site like this should present the writer with an option not only of fully controlling the text presentation, but also of allowing paging - that is, the avoidance of scrolling altogether. All the browsers do pagination now, and html with css is the correct solution for such a website as this. I don't know ruby on rails, but maybe that is the problem.

If at least full justification was re-enabled I would start posting again - maybe others have similar views.

whatwouldbukowskido
May 24, 01:20pm

"Noone has mentioned formatting."

From one of my earlier posts:

"THEN the system was "revamped" which resulted in the loss of the Holy Trinity:

Invites
Email notifications
Formatting"

Formatting, to me, is the essence of the value of the site. Esp. the ability to cut/paste a poem with varied word placements, shaped poems, etc.

As it is now, all additional spacing is lost when pasted into the story box, and the whole thing has to be re-worked, line by line, space by space, to get back to the original.

Also, I greatly miss the full-justification feature for prose, the ability to center the rare poem that calls for it, and the ability to post in different fonts.

Sally Houtman
May 24, 08:57pm

I *would* be nice to be able to centre/format a piece of writing without having to do it space by space, line by line.

The last poem I posted, I had to rework 5 times to get it centered properly.

Presentation is a big part of the 'completion' of a work. It would be wonderful to not have to work so hard to get things to look the way they do in the Word doc.

So add my plea for formatting to the mix.

James Lloyd Davis
May 24, 09:24pm

Yes to formatting. Yes to email notifications option. Yes to font and yes to Word and picture insertion from a tool bar.

All of these things will require more attention, but who is going to do something about it?

I do hope that even though the access is working again, people won't get complacent.

Start by listing the things you want and follow up with communicating those wishes aggressively along with real world suggestions as to how they might be accomplished.

Are the invitations working yet?

Anybody tried?

whatwouldbukowskido
May 24, 09:59pm

FORMATTING

is the Holy Ghost
of the Trinity:

Invites
Email notifications
Formatting

Sine qua non.

Sally Houtman
May 24, 10:53pm

James - I sent two invites in Nov/Dec and they still display in my 'sent invites' area as inactive, never received by recipient. I take this to mean the invite function still isn't working. Or it may mean those invites are lost and will need to be resent. I don't know. Maybe Carson will give us a heads-up about what to do with outstanding invites once it's back running.

But at least we can get in now!

Gary V. Powell
May 25, 06:23pm

I've been out of town and mostly without wi-fi for a couple of days. I'm hopeful that the site's functionality will be restored. I've very much enjoyed the people. the writing, and the opportunity to post work here. I had trouble getting signed on before I left town, but it looks like that's been fixed. I have two outstanding invites that were not delivered. I'm glad to see that Carson is on this.

Frankie Saxx
May 25, 07:48pm

I have 3 outstanding invites that need a resend. (plus 2 more I've earmarked but don't want to send until I know it's fixed.)

whatwouldbukowskido
May 25, 08:44pm

For the record, I find it completely bizarre, bewildering (and a bit unbelievable), that Jurgen, as well-connected as he is in the print and online literary community, is unable to come up with ONE workable idea to monetize this site to ensure its survival.

James Lloyd Davis
May 26, 12:51am

I rather doubt it's a lack of connections so much as the time to put into a project.

The key here is self determination by... us.

whatwouldbukowskido
May 26, 10:33pm

Almost every magazine's website I go to has a Paypal donate button.

How simple/difficult is that?

The time to have done that was two years ago when this place was hot. He would have got thousands....

Ask and you shall receive.

(when the product is good 'n hot)

Be honest.
Be upfront.
State what you need.

Don't let your once-popular nightclub denigrate into a messy unkempt place with backed-up terlits and one dim bulb hanging over the dance-floor and THEN

say

Oh, golly, I not know how to do this...

They could have been EARNING money.

whatwouldbukowskido
May 26, 10:40pm

In short...

they TOTALLY fucked up

a wonderful opportunity

to MAKE money.

James Lloyd Davis
May 27, 12:32am

"The time to have done that was two years ago when this place was hot."

What they did or did not do is irrelevant.
The question is... what is the membership going to do now?

Things are somewhat fixed now. Is that enough to keep it going at a slug's pace? Probably, until the next crash or until people get fed up and leave.

Fictionaut was hot once. It could be hot again, but not with an attitude of complacence, not with absentee leadership, not without involvement from people who recognize the value here, people who want to preserve it, make it something to be proud you belong.

If you want to get involved in making Fictionaut the success it could be, say so here, organize and do something about it. Otherwise... why bother to talk about it at all.

Make money? Absolutely. It can be done without so much as a new idea. Thing is, though, somebody has to do it.

whatwouldbukowskido
May 27, 01:02am

As Frankie Sachs said in a different thread three days ago (which, of course, got no response):

"It's hard to offer ideas or comments without knowing what Fictionaut needs."

Change MUST come from the top.

And there has been NO invitation from said location for individuals to come onboard, get involved.

How is a single member (or 353 members, for that matter) going to enter the data-base to enact a "donate" button? Organize a Kickstarter campaign? when they have not been given access?

whatwouldbukowskido
May 27, 01:06am

Don't get me wrong.

I'm all for involvement.

But first there has to be an invitation to do so.

Sally Houtman
May 27, 01:56am

"Things are somewhat fixed now"

Well...really the only thing that's fixed is what was broken in the process of fixing. We're no further ahead.

The invite function is vital to the survival of this community, as it affects group participation as well as introducing new blood.

And yeah, the formatting. Proper, professional presentation (without endless fiddling) would attract and keep new members.

I'd be happy to throw in some cash to unblock the terlits and change the light bulbs.

A lot of folks, I'm sure, would be happy to contribute in some way to buff this place up.

We just need to be told how and what to contribute. Or even *if* the contributions would be welcome.

whatwouldbukowskido
May 27, 02:07am

All I know is Jurgen asked for ideas, people gave ideas... no response.

Jugern indicated he needed money to keep the site going, people offered to give money... no response.

People asked HOW MUCH DO YOU NEED? No response.

People said WE'RE WILLING TO HELP! No response.

*sigh*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

back to my caffeine-fueled reformatting of chapbooks...

;-)

James Lloyd Davis
May 27, 05:41am

I'm not going to say another word, but will try to come up with a solution. When and if I have one, I'll bring it back to the forums.

Soon to be deleted
May 27, 11:33am

Here's a grand idea: Start your own site.

James Lloyd Davis
May 27, 04:30pm

Eeeeeyup.

James Lloyd Davis
May 27, 04:35pm

I could, couldn't I. Could make some cash too, I betcha. But if I did, I wouldn't need to ask for help getting it together. It would be hot, exclusive, viable, and run like a well oiled machine. It would be serviced and clean. Yup. I could do that, couldn't I.

Ramon Collins
May 27, 09:11pm

You'd be preachin' to the choir, JLD (cliché intended).

Fictionaut is but a showcase (vanity) site for fiction writers, because writers are just about the only people who like to read fiction, anymore. Today, fiction publishers want writers to ask their friends and family to guarantee the publisher's *cut* before they'll put ink to paper.

If a story doesn't move and make sound, very few people in the 21st Century will be interested. You're a hellofa fine writer, JLD -- go into short scripts. Film and videotape are a Garden of Eden (cliche) for fiction writers . . .

James Lloyd Davis
May 27, 09:22pm

Thank you, Ramon.

whatwouldbukowskido
May 27, 09:35pm

"Fictionaut is but a showcase (vanity) site for fiction writers"

Gotta disagree, Ramon.

While for some that may be true, for myself (and a very few others) it's a place to try-out work in the public eye. Kind of like an off-off-off-off-off-off-off-off Broadway.

In that sense it's essential to me.

Chris Okum
May 28, 12:18am

I can't think of a less efficient way to stoke your vanity than to publish your fiction on a site where, at best, maybe twenty people will comment on your work and tell you they like it. It seems to me that Fictionaut is, if anything, an anti-vanity site. Most people publish here with the understanding that there is a good chance no one will ever read their work, but they put it up anyway, just in case. Seems pretty humbling to me, and more in the vein of a lab or a workshop. And if other fiction writers are the only people who care about fiction anymore then it seems to me that it's business as usual. If movies and scripts are the place to be then I will gladly stay over here in the wasteland of prose. Movies and television are nothing more than a glorified game of exquisite corpse (wuth the rare exception), and anyone who is interested in that shouldn't be a fiction writer in the first place

Ramon Collins
May 28, 01:51am

Eddie: When you try out work in a password *public* eye, don't you want to know what hits, what misses? If not, why try new work out? You learn little from platitudes.

Chris: Writers are very hungry for recognition -- in fact, most are starving. Few people read fiction; just ask any publishing house or bookstore that's still alive.

Ay, that's the rub: ". . . and tell you they like it." On Fictionau t, it's safe say they like the story because Fn is not a writers' workshop, it's a writers' showcase. If they don't like the story, they'll join the Fn Silent Majority and not comment. What's accomplished?

I was in a dozen writers' online workshops and found out the Internet is tribal. You'd better say you like everything or shut the F up. I even devised an all-purpose review: "Your story really drew me in. I'm still crying. Keep writing!" Hey, maybe that'll work on Fictionaut.

I certainly agree with your assessment of writing in movies and TV (especially TV), all the more reason for fiction writers to change direction. Hell, they might even get paid!

Sally Houtman
May 28, 01:54am

Aw, Ramon. You went and did it now. Them's fightin' woids.

Fictionaut *is* a catwalk to strut your stuff.

But it is, if you choose, a rehearsal studio.

Imo the folks who use it only for vanity purposes are missing the party, and will, at some stage, start a brawl in the Forum about the unfairness of the faving system.

But we digress........

It's all Ramon's fault.

Sally Houtman
May 28, 02:03am

Ramon, I just saw your above comment. Seems we were writing at the same time!

Now to respond to the above -

"What's accomplished?"

A lot.

When I get a piece close to completion, the mere *act* of posting it, knowing that others will see it, forces me to look incredibly hard at the piece, give it that extra level of scrutiny and not be lazy.

Once I post a new piece, before anyone even has a chance to view or comment on it, I get an immediate gut reaction about how confident I feel about it.

The comments that follow are nice and great and gratifying and all.

But the benefit for me in posting new work already took place.

This place is a tool for me. It forces me to be hypercritical of my own work, regardless of whether or not anyone reads, comments, or faves.

And I like sharing published work. So I use it as a catwalk as well.

Sally Houtman
May 28, 02:14am

Take the piece I have on the main page for example (which I'll be taking down soon).

New piece. Conflicted about which way to go with it. Posted both possible directions.

Got some very interesting, insightful, and well-considered feedback.

A very productive exercise. Something *was* accomplished. (Thanks to all who chimed in).

And I got a few faves as well.

:)

whatwouldbukowskido
May 28, 02:51am

"Eddie: When you try out work in a password *public* eye, don't you want to know what hits, what misses? If not, why try new work out? You learn little from platitudes."

As Sally said, posting here forces ME to look at the work very closely.

What hits or misses HERE is of no interest to me.

Letitia Coyne
May 28, 12:23pm

I don't underestimate the value of posting at fictionaut.

After 9 novels and a creative crisis, the little snatches of positive regard I received here from people I didn't know but whose work I had admired for a few years didn't kick start my writing again but it did stop me burning or deleting everything I had.

It's many big talents in a small place. :)

Lxx

whatwouldbukowskido
May 28, 05:50pm

But lets--shall we--return to the purpose of this thread:

the absolute lack of interest from on high in seeking means to fund it (easily achieved/hundreds of sites are doing it) to ensure its survival.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The message could have been:

We need $1000.00 to pay SOMEONE to restore the previous utilities.

Please donate through the Paypal Button.

Instead, nothing.

whatwouldbukowskido
May 28, 05:58pm

I just find it fucking bizarre they would create this site and then just walk away

(when it couldabeena cash cow).

whatwouldbukowskido
May 28, 06:24pm

"I think Carson will get these problems with invitations and hopefully the messaging system sorted out."

I have absolutely no faith in that.

whatwouldbukowskido
May 28, 06:37pm

"What they did or did not do is irrelevant."

What they did not do is EXTRAORDINARILY relevant.

David Ackley
May 28, 11:09pm

On May 24 Carson posted that he was working on e-mails and invites and that he would let us know here when problems were fixed. I still don't see any reason to doubt that. It hasn't been that long, for one thing.

whatwouldbukowskido
May 29, 07:54pm

Isn’t it pretty to think so?

;-)

Ramon Collins
May 30, 01:48am

Chris Okum:

S'funny how the word "publish" gets thrown around on Internet fiction sites. Fictionaut doesn't publish stories (ISBN, ISSN); the stories are transmitted. Some e-zines try, briefly, to publish collections, but usually stop when writers run out of family, friends and neighbors.

Fictionaut is a password site -- when stories that appear here are submitted to most e-zines, they are considered as "unpublished". Same thing goes for writers' workshops.

James Lloyd Davis
May 30, 05:17am

People go wherever their jones takes them. I always thought of Fictionaut as the borscht circuit for literary fiction, the place where you test your material.

Like, "Run it up the flag and see who salutes!"

Or, "Put it on the train in New Haven, see if it gets off at Grand Central Station."

That's how it worked for me, a place where the stakes aren't so high, so I can try out different styles and voices, see where they take me. It still works for me.

Don't trust workshops anymore. You can get opinions, but they often contradict between one person and another. Thirty people? Thirty opinions. Think them a waste of time for me. All I want to know is whether my story has appeal... or is it a stinker.

eamon byrne
May 30, 10:20am

I'd like to say this is a helluva site. Or maybe I should say was. It's so much a "helluva" site that it's become a victim of its own success.

Maybe its problem is its generality. To appeal to the more it's ended up appealing to the less.

Or so I suspect.

We're all of us different kinds of writers. Me, I'm a wannabe experimentalist, unable to break out of outmoded tropes and faux-Jamesian syntax. The most average of the average. Yet I found in the site a welcoming home. Among all types some kindred souls. But most I stumbled upon drifted away in time. Zog Kadare, for example, a weird iconoclast who never got a review except from me. Shows how different our tastes can be, I'm hearing you think. And you'd be right. Still, for me, those unique voices left (though not all), one by one. And left me lonely.

Oh, poor me. Poor petal.

So drift. Question is, if you'd come, why would you go? The answer can't just be poor formatting. I posit an explanation, of sorts. When you enter a bookshop, which shelf do you go to? In this bookshop, called fictionaut, all the books are on the same shelf. Worse. Zadare is no longer to be found under Z.

David Ackley
May 30, 12:48pm

Why people leave Fictionaut deserves a thread of its own, Eamon. I regret the absence of writers like Shelagh Power-Chopra, Stephanie Bobo, David Erlewine for only a few examples of those who've drifted away. Yes, Zog, too, whose work I liked also. I can't answer for them, though I've talked with a couple about the question. One answer might be that it was never more than it was. Once you'd opened the package, the contents were displayed for all time. The reactions, or lack of them, to your work would always be of the same order. Deeper discussion might be available but would have to be sought out--from willing individuals or in private groups. What I've never understood though( and why I've stayed) was why the reading and discussion that one received weren't enough,when they were, in my experience, far more than one would get from any other form of publication, including hardcover--unless one were of the rare few who made the front page of the NY Times Book Review.

Maybe writers just can't help wishing for more, the ideal communication from the ideal reader(s), repeated many times over.

But if they're out there and taking note, maybe some of them would like to weigh in and speak for themselves.

James Lloyd Davis
May 30, 01:58pm

Fix it.

Ramon Collins
May 31, 07:54pm

David: If money is the hold-up, get a PayPal button as Mr. Eddie Mack suggests. I'll be happy to donate because Fictionaut serves as a necessary alternative outlet for writers.

David Ackley
May 31, 08:32pm

Ramon,
Don't get me confused with anyone who has any power here. I'm just the messenger boy trying to get some action on the problems.

Joani Reese
May 31, 11:14pm

I have benefited tremendously from posting my work at Fictionaut and from the private critique groups available here. I met many fine writers to whom I might have otherwise never been exposed. I don't blame Jurgen or Carson for allowing this place to diminish. It seems a function of many Internet sites to be fireworks and then fizz-outs. Not everyone wants to create a "cash-cow." Sometimes, people are at a point in their creative lives when developing a site like this makes sense, and the upkeep is not demanding; however, people evolve; people change; people find new ideas and actions on which they prefer to focus. The worst mistake was allowing everyone who had asked to come to the site to wander in. The interactions seemed to work much better when individuals already members were allowed to invite people they thought would be a fit. This only happened for a few months, but it did influence the feel of the place, and negated some of the vibrant creativity available. If Jurgen wants to fix the errors and Carson is still enthused enough to do so, they will. If not, enjoy and use what is here now and get over it. Thank you to Jurgen and Carson for your time and effort on our behalf. It was grand.

Charlotte Hamrick
May 31, 11:51pm

Again, I want to thank whoever for allowing me to wander in as I, too, have benefitted from meeting some wonderful writers, a few I consider mentors. I'm glad they took a chance and opened the doors.

I'm taking Jurgen and Carson at their word that the site is being worked on. I can't imagine they'd want to leave contributors (many I understand are friends) writing on a broken site. It's just not right.

James Lloyd Davis
Jun 01, 02:33am

One more time...

Fictionaut was a wonderful resource for me when I needed it, when I needed some validation after returning to writing following a very long absence, reassurance that I was not utterly out of touch. Participation here gave me the confidence I needed and the opportunity to 'shake and howdy-do' with people I've grown to respect and admire, simply on the basis of their consistent example of knowledge, genuine interest, and encouragement. I'm no teacher, but I've tried to pass on some of the encouragement I received.

I don't believe that the site is a 'fizzle' and I'm not yet ready to "...get over it." I believe there are people in the membership and people outside who can benefit as I did in the future. For this reason alone, I'm willing to prod and shout a bit and suggest that the site could be reborn, if not in its former 'glory' at least in an attractive and active web site for people who like to write and read, people who value other writers and their work.

This is not Facebook and it doesn't have to be trendy, doesn't need to be 'hot' but it could be the perfect place for writers to showcase and experiment with styles and voice.

If you feel as I do, then continue to make some noise. If you're not at all interested, why bother to say that I should be satisfied with what is until or move on, get over it? I don't think those are the only alternatives, otherwise I would have moved on already.

Besides, I don't want to get over it. I want to see Fictionaut come back... and thrive.

What's wrong with that?

Anyway. I'm done talking about it. I'll come back in another thread with a plan.

Sally Houtman
Jun 01, 02:50am

I'm with James.

"It was grand."

It still *is* grand. I'm not ready to say "was" yet.

But still...we wait...

Ramon Collins
Jun 01, 08:25pm

David:

"Don't get me confused with anyone who has any power here."
_____________________________

No confusion now.

We all thank you for bringing up a subject that's bound to give some keyboard-to-mind resuscitation to Fictionaut -- still the best fiction site on the Internet.

I don't write no more, but I do read. This is the place to read new, fresh fiction. And we all thank Jurgen and Carson for their vision and extra effort that made Fictionaut happen . . .

whatwouldbukowskido
Jun 01, 11:23pm

Dearest Gorgon--

Putin a
dog-gammmed
PayPay Donate
Button or ADMIT
you want the site
to wither and die
(for whatever-the-fuck
personal reasons drive you)

whatwouldbukowskido
Jun 02, 12:06am

(but please, no more pretend poppin' in every five months or so saying We are at an Absolute Loss as to how to monetize this site (though thousands of other sites have found a way) to ensure its survival, but Carson be werkin' day n' night...!

David Ackley
Jun 02, 12:18am

Thanks, Ramon. I'm glad to see that a so many have jumped into the discussion which has evolved into a good one of what we've gained from Fictionaut along with what our hopes are for it. I agree with Joani that if Jurgen and Carson are ready to move on they should be allowed to do so with nothing but our gratitude for what they gave us. But I can also see from the comments both critical and constructive that there is considerable sentiment here for keeping Fictionaut afloat, along with the willingness to commit--I assume time, money, ideas, organizational skills--that could turn the sentiment into reality. Whether that entails the founders passing the baton to others, maintaining control but accepting the help we can give, or, regrettably, even letting Fictionaut wither away in favor of some other model in other hands that builds on what has come about here can't be said at this juncture. But in my view any one of those is a viable alternative and reason for optimism.

whatwouldbukowskido
Jun 02, 12:36am

They should have the balls to say they want to let the site die.

They should have the balls to just shut it down
instead of letting it dangle in the wind

until it's dried up

and then say (again)

We not know how to keep it juiced....

David Ackley
Jun 03, 08:10pm

Feel free to whine here, but this thread's getting bloated: Post your money raising ideas on Frankie's Thread " She works hard for the money."

whatwouldbukowskido
Jun 03, 10:11pm

Not whining, David, just trying to get his/their attention.

"money raising ideas"

Travel back in time and put in a PayPal Donate button.

;-)

whatwouldbukowskido
Jun 03, 10:11pm

Not whining, David, just trying to get his/their attention.

"money raising ideas"

Travel back in time and put in a PayPal Donate button.

;-)

David Ackley
Jun 03, 11:12pm

Sorry, I know you weren't , just messing around a little.

whatwouldbukowskido
Jun 03, 11:26pm

I know you know...

;-)

But it boils down to the undeniable fact that Jurgen is fully aware of all possible money-making possibilities (though he claims ignorance) and refuses to engage any of them.

Frankie Saxx
Jun 04, 12:33am

@Crime Dawg

I'm not sure that's true. I mean, I have seen a lot of the standard moneymaking ideas fail (ads and referrals usually) and it's not because the site isn't good, but because people sometimes equate "monetizing" with "obnoxious".

It's hard to ask people for money.

whatwouldbukowskido
Jun 04, 12:43am

"It's hard to ask people for money."

No it's not.

Just do it (if you want your site to survive).

If you don't want it to survive, don't do it.

Frankie Saxx
Jun 04, 01:28am

You are totally correct, Crime Dawg. Except people.

Being people.

I love Amanda Palmer:

http://amandapalmer.net/blog/why-i-am-not-afraid-to-take-your-money-by-amanda/

Sally Houtman
Jun 04, 02:39am

What's missing in all of these discussions/threads/posts is

participation

from anyone in a position to make *anything* happen.

Until the absentee landlord(s) appear and begin to show an interest in these issues...

nothing is going to happen.

"It's hard to ask people for money"

I'll write a check. But someone has to tell me for how much and where to send it.

Until that happens, we're in a stall situation.

Sally Houtman
Jun 04, 02:40am

And for the record -

I *am* whining.

%(

Charlotte Hamrick
Jun 04, 04:32am

Exactly. We can discuss ad nauseum but we don't have the power or tools to change anything.

Sally Houtman
Jun 04, 09:34am

From Jurgen's post above (22nd of May):

"If you have any ideas in that regard, please don't hesitate to contact me."

The tribe has spoken.

And spoken.

And spoken.

And spoken.

Your turn.

whatwouldbukowskido
Jun 04, 06:33pm

Eggzactatackily.

Until there's a response from the power(s) that be

there is
nothing
we can
do

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I might add I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe that NOT ONE of the below *luminaries*

http://fictionaut.com/board

has any ideas/experience with monetizing a site.

whatwouldbukowskido
Jun 04, 06:39pm

"And for the record -

I *am* whining."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I ain't whining, I'm bitching pissed.

;-)

Carson Baker
Jun 05, 06:31pm

Hey guys --

Just a little update from me. I'm still working on improvements to the site, which you can expect to see within 1-2 weeks. The changes won't introduce any new functionality, but should fix a lot of the problems you guys have reported.

I'm sorry this stuff takes time. I'm doing development when I can in the evenings, as much as possible.

Thanks for the patience.

- Carson

James Lloyd Davis
Jun 05, 06:55pm

Thank you, Carson.

David Ackley
Jun 05, 06:59pm

Thanks, Carson, for keeping us posted.

Carol Reid
Jun 05, 07:38pm

Thanks Carson,it's encouraging to hear that progress is being made!

Gary Hardaway
Jun 05, 07:44pm

Many thanks.

James Lloyd Davis
Jun 05, 07:45pm

If the invites are fixed, then it would accelerate a program of growth. We should bear that in mind and petition the leadership for what it is we want.

Chris Okum
Jun 05, 11:43pm

We're going to take the building, people. Do you hear me? We are going to take this motherfucking building. If someone gets in your way, go through them. If someone shoots at you, shoot them. If someone brings down a billy club on your head, take the billy club out of their fucking hands and hit them over the head ten times harder. Are you listening to me? We can't waste any more time. A line in the sand has been drawn. Do you see that? Look over there. You see the sand? Now do you see the line? Who here doesn't see the line? You don't? It's right there. Can you see it now? Is there anyone else here who can't see the line? What? You can't see the sand? You can't see all that fucking sand? How can you not see all the sand? Forget about the line, I don't understand how you can't see the sand. There's miles of it. Is that an actual problem? You've never been able to see sand? I've never heard of that before. Has anyone else ever heard of that before? You have? You can't see the sand either? What does it look like to you then? Does it look like grass? No. Does it look like concrete? Kind of. Huh. This is bizarre. My entire life I've never met one person who can't see sand and know I've met two of them in the last sixty seconds. Well, can you help us take the building? That building, right there. That's a building. It's not? Then what is it? That's a shack. That looks like a shack to you? Does that look like a shack to anyone else? Yeah, you, it does to you. And to you too. And you. And you. Great. So half of you can't see the line drawn in the sand because you can't see sand and the rest of you can't see the building that we're about to take because it doesn't look like a building to you, it looks like a shack. Well, I can see the building and I can see the line drawn in the sand because I can see both the building and the sand, so I'm going to take the fucking building and I'm going to cross the line in the sand and all I want to know is who's coming with me? You? That's it. No one else? This is great. This is just great. I thought all of you wanted to take this building back. No? That's not what you're interested in doing? Then why did you come here? But you're not allowed in the building, that's why we're taking it back. You are? You're allowed in the building? Well, then, go, go on, go in the building. Is anyone else allowed in the building I thought no one was allowed in? You? And you? Okay, raise your hand if you're allowed in this building. Sorry, shack. Let' see: one, two, three, four, five, so all of you. All of you are allowed in. So I'm the only one not allowed in. That's great. That's fine. Because you know what? I'm about to take back this building? Do you hear me? I'm going to do it all by myself? That's fine. Because it's a building, and I'm not allowed in, so I'm going to take it back, because there's been a line drawn in the sand, and I can see the line, because I can see the sand, now, everyone, get out of my way!

Sam Rasnake
Jun 05, 11:58pm

Thanks, Carson.

Joani Reese
Jun 06, 12:08am

Thank you.

David Ackley
Jun 06, 12:37am

Chris:

Exactly!

Artists make good art but lousy revolutions.

Sally Houtman
Jun 06, 12:46am

Chriiii-iiiis!!

Oh, Chriiii-iiiis!!

Come in now, love. You're dinner's getting cold.

Where has that boy gone?

What?

No, I'm sorry, I'm putting my foot down.

There'll be no hostile takeovers until your homework is done.

James Lloyd Davis
Jun 06, 04:46am

Chris, me an'th'guys is right behind youse all'a'way. You lead. We follow. Youse don't has t'look back 'cause we're there, man, right behind ya.

No. I mean it. Don't be lookin' back!

What? Y'don't trust us? What?

whatwouldbukowskido
Jun 06, 06:03pm

Carson--

Are you doing this for free?

That's crazy.

You're not obligated to do so.

We don't own you

(unless we
pay you)

Tell us how much moola you want.

TO GET IT ALL RIGHT:

Invites
Email notifications
FORMATTING

Put in a PayPal button.

And don't do anything
until said amount
is raised.

Ramon Collins
Jun 06, 09:15pm

Carson: ". . . when I can in the evenings . . ."

DO NOT QUIT YER DAY JOB! You've done a hellofa good job at nailing this birdhouse together and all writers should appreciate your skill and efforts.

But if you're over-loaded, perhaps you can "farm" some of the more mundane, time-consuming tasks out. Just give us a dollar-amount and we'll try to meet it (or PayPal).

"We're all Bozos on this bus!"

whatwouldbukowskido
Jun 06, 09:25pm

until
they put
in a dollar
amount required
and a paypal button
none of this is real

Ramon Collins
Jun 07, 09:00pm

Nuthin' on the Internet is real. Cyberspace is an electronic illusion. Have you noticed when the power goes off your computer goes with it?

ONWARD and we'll tilt the windmill together!

David Ackley
Jun 16, 11:34am

For the first time in months, just got a whole bunch of Fictionaut e-mail. I think Carson just broke the logjam!

Frankie Saxx
Jun 16, 11:37am

@David: Quick! Send your Bear Pit invites. Before the logs jam again!

David Ackley
Jun 16, 01:23pm

@Frankie

Good advice. Don't know yet whether invitations are working to other members and to the world outside. There were a couple to 'Bear Pit' in the pipeline so maybe they'll show up. Has everybody been getting their backed-up messages in their e-mail????

Frankie Saxx
Jun 16, 01:32pm

@David

I got mine and I was able to send invites this morning also. (And actually have the recipients recieve them :)

David Ackley
Jun 16, 01:40pm

@Frankie : Halleluja!

@ Carson:

Thanks, Carson, for ficsing Fictionaut.
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