Forum / Reciprocity by the Wayside

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 18, 03:10am

I've only been here since July and I can tell the old from the new, though I am officially new. I followed JP Reese's forum guideline to the T and every time someone commented, I commented back on a story and commented on my pages. I don't recognize anyone's name anymore and absolutely zero of the new people are reciprocating comments even when I find nice things to say about their, well, let's not get into it, stories. So now I started adding at the end: So what did you think of my last story? A prompt. Pathetic.

Darryl Price
Nov 18, 05:17pm

You are way too hard on yourself. Life is happening to everybody all the time. I'd much rather spend my time on Fictionaut reading stories and poems and talking it up with fellow writers, but I barely have time right now to type this, and I'm only doing it because I like you. Recently I started a new job. Recently there was a death in the family. Recently my car stopped running and almost killed me. Recently my daughter started college. All I'm saying is don't expect so much. You seem a fine person and a fine writer. That's excellent, and fun, and beautiful of you.Keep going. Write more, and more and more--if you have the time. I haven't written anything new in a long time,and what I have been able to come up with really hasn't struck a chord with anyone here. But that's okay. I mean it. It's perfectly fine. I'm still me. I'll still give it another try when I get inspired, and I'll still be glad for a Gloria Garfunkel in the world.

Joani Reese
Nov 18, 05:57pm

DP--I love you.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 18, 07:32pm

I had a near-death brain injury in June and I can't do much, I can't work anymore, permanently lost my job as a therapist, all I can do is read and write and go for short walks and just starting to drive. My brain will not heal for a year, maybe longer, maybe not completely. I have no memory of how I found fictionaut, I just one day found myself here and it has been lifesaving, so I probably have more time on my hands than most to obsess about details. My two boys are grown. My husband is a college professor (thank God - he cared for me this summer.) I also paint. I think I have to add a more time consuming project: a Holocaust story collection. It's just hard to sustain the focus on that material and I have no idea how people publish but researching that will take time too. I'm too involved in Fictionaut. Thank you DP for your kind words, so much kinder than David Ackerly's hurtful hostility to just back off and accusing me of dishonesty. I'll be here. But just less. I'm backing off.

James Claffey
Nov 18, 07:40pm

so sorry to read of your injury gloria. what a terrible series of events. i've had enough of the sniping and condescension. i'm done for now. maybe for good. i don't know. too much politics, too many backstabbers, too little generosity. sad, really. lots of good people on here, but the rise of the negative is too much like electoral politics, so i'll write the way i used from now on and keep to myself.

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 18, 08:16pm

James, stick around, eh? When all the good people go, all that's left is...

James Claffey
Nov 18, 08:57pm

thanks JLD, i'm mulling things over. appreciate your sentiment.

Mathew Paust
Nov 18, 10:37pm

I'm not only new to Fictionaut but I just now discovered the forums! Gloria unknowingly led me here because I saw that she had posted something in "general forum", which I thought might be one of the myriad groups, and...

My thanks to you, Gloria, for this and for being one of the first to welcome me here and consistently read and comment on my posts. I only today learned of your brain injury and, being probly a tad too empathetic for my own good, I found myself wincing and aching as I read and wishing there were something I could say or do to abet the healing.

If it's any comfort, I'm a refuge from the dying writers colony Open Salon, where nastiness erupted so frequently it grew into an art form, as cliques of newbies and oldies and in-betweenies banded together to fight each other and drive off the intermittent trolls. Sounds sort of like life, I know. But the place grew exponentially in the nearly three years I was there and then the spambots discovered it, posting endless streams of crap and eventually learning to rate and comment on each others robo-posts, to keep them in the feeds, and even started planting comments in gibberish on legitimate blogs until the obsolete Salon platform could no longer sustain the traffic. Supposedly Salon is trying to upgrade or replace the platform, but they've been promising this for a couple of years now and many of us have set up our own online community -- www.oursalon.ning.com -- which is much more user friendly and has a light-touch moderator who keeps the place relatively civil.

Our Salon, tho, is more a blogging site than one for serious writing, which is why I'm ecstatic to have been accepted for membership here. It's been heavenly, in fact, until just now, with my learning from Gloria that all is not ecumenical in Xanadu. I've yet to see any rudeness...wait, I take that back. Someone in a comment pronounced one of my very first posts, a quasi silly Frost parody, as simply "unbearable." After an interior "hmph" I deleted the comment and that's been that. I'm enthusiastically impressed with the collegial respect the members here show each other in their comments -- at least I was until just now, reading Gloria's remarks.

As to winning recognition, I'm aware this takes time and effort. Just becoming familiar with the writers whose works I see and who comment on mine is taking time. I've taken to not wearing socks when I know I will be spending time on Fictionaut because I've had them blown off too many times already by some of the powerful, brilliant and exquisite writing I have read already.

I see I am rambling, and I now desist.

Mathew Paust
Nov 18, 10:43pm

Oh, and Claffey. Stick around, buddy, please. One of your pieces had that sock-removal effect on me. Don't worry about the rudeness. I suspect the aspiring Woollcotts who inevitably find communities such as this are merely honing their chops for a chance at making The Show, you know? Undoubtedly nothing personal.

Gessy Alvarez
Nov 18, 11:21pm

Everyone please stay. Write as much as you want. This is meant to be a place for writers to meet and mingle through their creativity.

Gloria, you are amazing and I want to continue reading your work. I don't always get a chance to leave comments but please know I am reading and I'm on awe of your talent.

Claffey, don't you dare leave. You got me so invested in your work at this point that I'd hate to visit this site and not see your name.

Whatever you decide please know that this reader looks forward to reading your work.

Darryl, you're awesome and so is everyone I've had the privilege of meeting through this site.

I take my breaks from fictionaut from time to time because life and career call me away. But, I see this as my community of writers and I respect everyone here for doing what they do.

Yeah, there will always be someone who feels neglected, ignored, or disregarded. That's the drawback of being in a group. I think it's good that people air things out. It's healthy but don't let all the noise get you down.

XO.

James Claffey
Nov 19, 01:02am

y'all are very kind, and i do value the voices that speak up--gessy, james lloyd, mathew, gloria, and the others who've contacted me by message and email. maybe you're right, and mathew, maybe the delete button is the answer! i'll be back withal.

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 19, 01:36am

Goodgoodgoodgoodgood. After all, James, after this, there's only Facebook. I'd sooner stay here and suffer a bit of frost and glitzcliques than enter the world of frenemies and lickety likes.

J.A. Pak
Nov 19, 01:46am

Facebook? Noooooooo.............

James Claffey
Nov 19, 04:51am

the only way is onward.

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 19, 05:01am

'n up.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 19, 06:22am

Gessy, what you said about my writing was incredibly supportive and I greatly appreciate it.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 19, 11:43am

I've thought about it and decided that there will be unclassy, petty, uncouth people with personal grudges stirring up trouble and insults and who can't apologize in every organization, but that is such a tiny minority of the love and generosity of gifts this organization has had to offer me and me back to the organization that I'm just going to keep writing and posting as much as I can within the limits set by the rules and I hope James Claffey makes the same decision. IGNORE THEM. THEY'RE NOT WORTH IT. They're miserable people with their own demons. Don't let them make them ours.

Mathew Paust
Nov 19, 12:02pm

Gloria, just to clear up any potential misunderstanding, in my earlier comment in this thread I wrote, "I'm enthusiastically impressed with the collegial respect the members here show each other in their comments -- at least I was until just now, reading Gloria's remarks."

It horrified me this morning to see that and wonder if anyone -- you in particular -- might read that as a slam on you. What I was referring to is your mention of another member here who was unkind to you. I checked out his profile after reading your remark. The impression I have just from that was of someone who is rather full of himself with underdeveloped social skills (redundant, I know, but tossed it in for emphasis). Were I wearing my deerstalker cap I might go so far as to suggest he is also a misogynistic ass with bad breath, hemorrhoids and rotting teeth.

Gary V. Powell
Nov 19, 12:51pm

Stumbled in here this morning when I should have been writing. Been posting, reading, commenting on Fictionaut since May, I think. I don't know how it used to be, but overall I've been pleased with the experience. I have noticed that if one of my stories doesn't catch on quickly it's probably not going to catch at all, but that's no different than if I send a story to an editor ploughing through a large slush pile and my first sentence fails to grab attention--so, I don't take it personally. At the same time, I do have a concern that even in the short time I've been here it seems to me that while the quantity of Most Recent Stories has increased, the quality seems to have declined. I don't know how to address that other than to encourage continued participation by the better writers--both stories and comments.

Back to the blank page.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 19, 02:59pm

Matthew: I know you are a solid good guy.

Gary, you're right, I'm here to post as much as I can and the fact that the line is going faster is that there are more members writing and if that gives me an opportunity to stick in a story faster than before, you can bet I'll take that opportunity. It's not my fault so many new bad writers are flowing in the gates. Logically, if the line is going faster, there are a lot more slots for everyone. I'm not taking anyone's away. I'm moving the line along for the next person. And if people dislike that the line moves too fast, complain to Jurgen and Marcy to close the doors for awhile instead of going in circles on the Forum. They themselves have admitted recently escalating the admissions.

Gary V. Powell
Nov 19, 03:42pm

Gloria, I'm not sure that's what I said.

What I was expressing was a concern of quantity at the expense of quality, in general. I hope the "Old Guard" continues to contribute and comment, so that this site will be the best it can be. I don't know that it's up to Jurgen and Marcy to intervene--so far as I can tell, this is a self-regulating community. Things will work out, or not.

Mathew Paust
Nov 19, 05:04pm

Not looking to start a dustup, but I believe we all agree that taste is subjective. What works for some might not for others. I'm reluctant to dismiss something that's not my cup of tea as "bad" writing. Maybe it is, but if it is, then by whose standards? Is there a template that all writing must fit in order to meet a minimum standard? Probly so, but I've been surprised often when taking subsequent looks at something I initially dismissed, only to find I'd missed the point altogether. Sometimes only a word or two can make the difference.

I'm aware this is not an online school for the newly literate to learn craft, but I'm skeptical when people claim to have the inside skinny on talent. My rule of thumb is that when something doesn't work for me, unless someone more familiar with the work or the writer suggests a second look, I pass it by. Maybe the writer just let a squib or early draft slip by and didn't catch it in time.

If quality is something measurable objectively why do so many writers need approval? Why do they agonize after putting something in the mail or online until the the feedback comes? Why the need for editors?

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm new here, but I've participated in other writers' communities. I've yet to find one where newcomers weren't scrutinized suspiciously by "old guard" members who've coalesced as much by mutual taste as by seniority. No different than the larger society, sadly.

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 19, 05:48pm

There's nothing sad, really, about matters of taste and style becoming benchmarks for a particular readership. It's more sad when new people are discouraged when they feel the freeze. They post one or two piece and when they go by unnoticed, they may say, "Who needs it?" and choose to stop trying. I don't believe it's the fault of the audience when the player doesn't connect.

Persistence is a quality at the heart of success for any writer who believes that the writing is only one half of the artistic process. The other half is the readership, the audience. Writing is a process that is more or less incomplete without the reading half. Sometimes writers forget that and when they are ignored, decide to use the defense... "I write to please myself, so it doesn't matter really."

Sometimes you have to fail a lot before you ever succeed in getting recognition. The membership of Fictionaut is a tough audience and... maybe it is a little biased toward particular styles. Nonetheless, it pays to persist. You can break through with good writing and consistent effort, but only if you're willing to take a chance. If you give up in a totally voluntarey venue like this, how will you ever get published in a true competitive environment? Expose yourself and reciprocate recognition of other writers before the fact of appreciation for your own work. That's the soul of community. You have to work at it.

James Lloyd Davis
Nov 19, 05:49pm

Voluntary...

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 19, 05:55pm

Gary:
Marcy and Jurgen have a major impact as the gatekeepers, deciding how large the pool of writers will be in Fictionaut. It seems to me, when it gets too crowded, as in all settings, there is more stress to the whole system. I still want to know how many members there are and how do they decide the ideal number. The quantity effects the quality and how well we are able to "self-regulate".

Sally Houtman
Nov 19, 06:15pm

"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted."

-Ralph Waldo Emerson

Dolemite
Nov 19, 06:36pm

Dang it, Ralph, I worked hard to generate this:

Adhominems Я’ Us®

to use as a reference to this thread, and now you've gone and spoiled it all by saying something
brilliant like... well, what you just did.

Matthew Robinson
Nov 19, 07:08pm

I love this website; I feel this website; writers are my people. I adore them, and I feel it every time someone expresses frustration toward the speed at which pieces come and go here (or other trends of that nature: comments, faves, etc.), and also when people express frustration at the voiced frustration of those people. It always breaks down to why we write.

We are a terribly fragile species, writers. With our curse of intelligence, quest for self-awareness, our burden to the words, our definition of identity, and the weight of our most tremendous predecessors depressing upon us at all hours of the day, all we ultimately can do is pick up a pen, open a document, spool a sheet of paper around the platen and say, "Okay, go." Ultimately, that is all there is, community or no.

Whether you write for yourself, somebody lost or not yet lost, for attention, or perhaps for those souls perished in the Holocaust, the mere decision to do so, regardless of what happens when you jettison that work into the world--be it published or rejected or perpetually slushed--that you did it and did not just talk about it or wish you did it but did it and did it your way and did it because you had no choice but to do it--ultimately, that is the best possible outcome you can ever hope for yourself as a writer.

Whether you choose to depart from this site, post more prolifically, comment/fave more/less, as long as you keep making the choice to give yourself to the art of writing, you are doing it correctly.

My people.

Sally Houtman
Nov 19, 07:09pm

And they say there are no good writers on this site. Thanks.

-Ralph

Matthew Robinson
Nov 19, 07:19pm

SALLY I WANT TO KNOW WHO "THEY" THINK THEY ARE SAYING THAT ABOUT MY PEOPLE I WILL FIND THEM AND I WILL DELIVER A SWIFT BLOW TO THEIR BLADDER CAUSING THEM TO MICTURATE THEMSELVES IN FRONT OF THEIR CRUSH RUINING ANY CHANCE OF ROMANCE.

Gessy Alvarez
Nov 19, 07:25pm

"Micturate" what a great word!

James Claffey
Nov 19, 07:35pm

i micturated in my pants this morning. a rough start to a monday.

Gessy Alvarez
Nov 19, 08:36pm

Hilarious! Now I know how what word to use around the Thanksgiving table.

James Claffey
Nov 19, 09:02pm

just try not to micturate on the turkey, gessy!

Matthew Robinson
Nov 19, 09:04pm

"Micturition is inevitable." - Whizz Trek

Gary V. Powell
Nov 19, 11:34pm

Had to look that up--micturate.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 19, 11:43pm

I just want to apologize to David Ackley and everyone else for overreacting to his innocuous remark about the line to post fiction. I had a serious brain injury in June that led to three weeks of hospitalization and will have cognitive deficits for at least a year. One of them is in the arena of sequencing and lines. I can't conceptualize them. It's impossible to explain. He was just trying to explain something to me my brain could not absorb. I have no hard feelings. I'm embarrassed I caused a ruckus. I hate the doctor who caused the brain injury with mistaken, thoughtless overmedication. It's hard to learn to live in an impaired brain. Thank God my writing is intact.

David Ackley
Nov 20, 12:23am

As I wrote to Gloria, while I appreciate her apology, under the circumstances as she has explained them, it wasn't necessary. I want to join everyone else though in wishing her the best and hoping that she keeps posting her fine writing which I continue to look forward to reading.

Mathew Paust
Nov 20, 02:07am

Nothing like a good near-rhubarb to shake out the kinks and break some ice. Laffed so hard up there a piece I durned near inadvertently acted out the new word Matt Robinson introduced to many if not all of us in his winning comment. Yes, as the self-appointed judge of this spicy little contest it gives me inordinate pride to bestow the blue ribbon for exemplary diplomatic wordsmithery to Mr. Robinson despite his injection of the aforementioned esoteric euphemism to the erudite writer's revolving lexicon. Second prize goes to Bix Beiderbecke, obviously, for giving us this: Adhominems Я’ Us®

And Ralph once again snags the white.

Sally Houtman
Nov 20, 02:45am

Always the bridesmaid...

-Ralph Waldo Emerson

Mathew Paust
Nov 20, 04:06am

LOL

Frankie Saxx
Nov 20, 12:48pm

Guys, I am confused by all the drama. It's the internet. People are gonna use it however makes sense to them.

I don't think commenting with the silent expectation of reciprocity and then getting upset if people don't return the read/comment/favorite is a useful approach. If someone commented on my work and concluded their comment with "What did you think of my last story?" I'd think their primary motivation in commenting was self-promotion, rather than genuine interest in my writing, and I'd ignore that person accordingly.

Gloria: I am very sorry to hear about your injury. I hope it's something that you will recover from in time.

Gloria Garfunkel
Nov 20, 02:09pm

Frankie. You are absolutely right. It's obnoxious. I'd swear first and then ignore the person too. What was I thinking?
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