Forum / First Book Experiences

Gessy Alvarez
May 09, 03:55pm

Here's an innocent question, for those who have published at least one book, can you tell me a little about your experience?

Was it a pleasant experience, or one filled with intrigue? Did you go the traditional route (agent/publisher) or the maverick route(self-published/small press/very very small press)?

I'm about to submit to this process but I'm still gun-shy.

Linda Simoni-Wastila
May 09, 06:21pm

Gessy, Are you talking about shopping for an editor or agent? Going the small press route (with or without an agent)? Self-pubbing? Any or all of the above?

I have not done any of the above, though I am actively looking for an agent. I am very curious what others have to say. Peace...

Gessy Alvarez
May 09, 06:33pm

Yes...All of the above, Linda.

The whole process (or at least my idea of the process) makes me cringe so I thought this discussion might motivate me into action.

Susan Tepper
May 09, 09:04pm

In my experience, every one was different. Even working twice with the same publisher was different, in different ways. There is no "standard" anymore, if there ever was one. Just send out your ms and hope for the best. Don't think too much or you'll drive yourself crazy. Hold your nose and jump in the pool. The water is... fine... sometimes.. usually... not all the time..
Basically its apples and oranges. It might turn out to be a swell experience or it might suck. Kind of like life. But it is nice to have a book that you wrote to hold in your hands..

Robert Vaughan
May 09, 09:36pm

My experience was serendipitous!!! And I am in the process now. What happened was I had a ms. of short fiction that I'd sent out two or three places, and had "favorable" rejections. Then, I also entered the Rose Metal Press year end chapbook competition- nope. Still, I went into 2012 publishing at places in my own Top 25 journals (I keep nipping away at them!) as well as other favorite standards. I don't let rejection stop me, I feel the feelings and get over them.
Then, I was booked to read at Timothy Gager's DIRE Literary Series in Cambridge, MA. An excellent event that has been going on for over 10 years. And at that event, an angel named Gloria Mindock came, and also read! Afterwards, Tim, Gloria and I attended a bunny club (no, not Hugh Hefner, think more Easter weekend, endless college kids in bunny costumes!!!) At some point, we were all lamenting about submissions, and successes, this one, that one, usual writer fare. And out of the blue, Gloria said, "Well, I would publish you, Robert."

HUH?

I was shocked. Could she be bluffing? Was she serious? It most certainly was not the right time or place to have that conversation, but my heart nearly stopped. Then, when I went back to my hotel, I sent Glo an e-mail to say how great it was to read together, and thank her for Nothing Divine Here (her poetry book which is fantastic!) and oh, by the way, did you MEAN WHAT YOU SAID???!!!

Well, she did. The whole next day, Gloria took me to her Bagel Bards breakfast, and we had lunch with writer friends, and I felt like instant family with her. And so, this is what transpired: I have a chapbook coming out (Microtones is the working title) and only one poem (of 24) was suggested for another...and then, further down the road, Gloria will also bring out my full-length short fiction book. A two book DEAL!

All from CERVENA BARVA PRESS!!!

I will say this, as a foot-note- do your work! Be sure that when the time comes, you have the goods, and are ready! Be organized. I've had so many opportunities like this that I have shunned, or ignored, or pretended they never happened. For me, it comes down to one person. And a connection. And support. I had no idea why I was doing a reading in Boston, other than I knew Tim, and we were buddies. But now I know!!!

Thanks for asking this great question, Gessy and I wish you only the best. I'm happy to follow this up with any questions or considerations you might have.

Joani Reese
May 10, 12:21am

Robert--I am delighted to read about this great news. Books do often happen with serendipity. Bill Yarrow suggested I send my work to Matt Barton at Naked Mannekin, and the next thing I knew, I had a chapbook in the works. Connections are important to all writers, and they can often mean the difference between a book and laboring in obscurity. Congratulations to you and Gloria and the beginning of a wonderful collaboration.

Misti Rainwater-Lites
May 10, 09:43am

Gessy, as far as getting my work out there goes, I have been lucky. Small press publishers have approached me out of the blue and asked for manuscripts. Leah Angstman of Propaganda Press (the best publisher I have worked with...she is extremely committed and passionate about her work) published Amethyst Miraculous, a chapbook of my poems. Andrew Taylor of Erbacce Press published Dripping Milk, a chapbook of my poems. I've got Blank Cake on Coatlism Press. Bill Shute published several poetry chapbooks for me on Kendra Steiner Editions. David E. Oprava published a full-length collection of my poetry, Sloppy Mouth, on Grievous Jones Press. My latest full-length poetry collection, Expired Nickel Valentine, was published last year by Debra Marlar on Goldfish Press (now Lady-Lazarus Press). My self-published second novel, Bullshit Rodeo, was picked up by Blunt Trauma Press this year.

These are all small press publishers so I have not seen much money. Bill Shute sent me a few CVS gift cards and a few $20 checks. That sounds ridiculous but I am very grateful whenever anyone takes interest in my work and is willing to put time and energy (and money) into my words.

That being said, I am interested in making money with my writing and feel daunted because I only have sixty accredited college hours and don't know how to to go about applying for residency or fellowship. Do residencies and fellowships even exist for women with limited education?

Going to Google now.

Gessy Alvarez
May 10, 03:13pm

These stories are great! Keep them coming...

Susan Tepper
May 10, 09:00pm

Misti you can probably get into a good low residency program because you have so much work already published. Check out Bennington and I think Goddard is also low residency. A lot of people do just fine without the MFA, too.

Misti Rainwater-Lites
May 10, 11:31pm

Thanks, Susan! Wish to god I'd had more focus when I was nineteen (went to college late)...I didn't even know what an MFA was. Will definitely check out Bennington and Goddard.

Susan Tepper
May 11, 12:40am

Misti, in my opinion, you are lucky to have developed your voice and style on your own, without 20 teachers flattening you. A lot of people are against the MFA for that very reason. Some writers manage to keep their writing voice intact during the process, but many do not. It has to be brutal, in a way, getting criticism from so many fronts and there is the hapless writer struggling to stay afloat. I believe it is a good networking tool to get a mentor to get you a decent agent. But having said that, the writing world is in flux, and the agents can't even sell literary books anymore. So... is it going to help the writer, in the end, to have those 3 letters? Agents I know don't even care about that anymore. They just want a story that is kind of commercial. "Literary Fiction" kind of makes them cringe. The publishers are looking only at books that will bring in money. That's what I know. I'm sure someone will jump in and totally disgree, which is fine. But I do try and share what I've learned without putting any spin on it. If we sat down over a few beers, I could make you cry over my personal tale of publishing woes.

Gessy Alvarez
May 11, 02:18am

I'm going to be meeting with an agent and a publisher at The Aspen Writers' retreat in June so I need to hear some stories and formulate my attack.

So keep it flowing peeps...I'm captivated by the range of experiences shared so far.

Misti Rainwater-Lites
May 11, 06:34am

Susan, it's pretty fucking bleak out there these days. A couple of years ago I queried a few agents with my first novel, Nova's Gone Potty. I didn't try very hard because I knew my novel was too weird to be easily categorized and marketed. A novel about a constipated loner chick with a toilet that insults her in Ozzy Osbourne's voice, what the hell are you going to do with that? Ha. I know that memoirs are all the rage but I can't go that route...my second novel, Bullshit Rodeo, is a fictionalized account of my life with an emphasis on one month in the summer of 2010. I'm grateful that Blunt Trauma Press picked it up but that won't get me out of a rent house in Texas and into a three bedroom apartment in San Francisco. I'd love to have some beers with you and hear your stories. My network is small and consists mostly of writers in similar situations...stuck in obscurity, plugging away to minimal reward.

Gessy Alvarez
May 11, 12:36pm

Misti, I understand where you are coming from...I'll share a little bit of my bacground.

I began to take my writing seriously seven years ago. That's when I wrote my first bit of literary fiction. That story got me into Breadloaf which then helped me get the recommendation letter needed to apply to an MFA program. There's so much debate about the MFA so I won't into that. All i can say is that I needed to stay local. Columbia is a very expensive school but it's also an intellectually challenging and competitive environment. It was what I needed. But we all have are own needs.

I was sick during my first year so I extended my coursework to three years and then worked on my thesis for two additional years.

So now I've been at it for seven years...been to workshops in San Francisco, residencies in the Midwest, and now planning a western excursion. I have enough material for a collection of short stories and poetry. That said, this year I'm armed and ready for action.

Misti, just go for whatever you. The writing life is best lived by those who have tasted blood, sorrow, joy, and fire...not those who only bare paper cuts.

Of course this my first year of seeking publication....the thing is I find it hard to submit (and I do mean being a bottom) to anything less than the best. If getting a good deal is hard then I expect to be at it for a number of years...

Susan Tepper
May 11, 02:20pm

Gessy & Misti, some people get lucky early. I swear it is so indefinable. I thought I got lucky. I had 2 books in harper collins at the same time. they were tracking. i was elated. then, my editor there quit. she passed the book along to another editor. they closed that editor's imprint in NY (fourth estate) and fired that editor. they moved my books to another imprint. that editor quit. they moved my books to a 4th editor. she was about 16 years old (I exaggerate). anyway, she didn't take to them and returned them. all this took approx 2 years. I really thought I was going to flip out towards the end. those 2 books remain unpublished. they are both literary novels. about 75 agents have read them over the past 10 years and no takers now. one of those books was shortlisted in the zoetrope contest years ago. I didn't have the luck.

Linda Simoni-Wastila
May 11, 04:57pm

All, thanks for sharing your illuminating experiences and comments. I agree--follow whatever path feels right for you. It's bound to change at any rate ;^)

The publishing environment IS brutal. But I do believe the combination of talent and persistence and, yes, luck, eventually plays out the way it is supposed to. I am just starting my first earnest look at agents with a novel that is getting some traction. But will it play out? Who knows. I have my eyes on a certain trajectory, one that straddles 'commercial' and small press success, and while being able to retire on the proceeds of my fiction would be nice, I am not factoring money into any success equations.

I am a late bloomer at this craft, started in Janaury 2006, spent most of my 'adult' years climbing the ladder to the ivory tower. After several years debating the utility of additional ed-oo-kay-shun, I enrolled in the Hopkins MA in Writing program. It's part-time, a course a semester. With young kiddos, a full-time academic position, part-time is all I can afford time or money wise. While it is not my ideal program, it provides the intellectual, community, and motivational support I need to write. At the half-century mark, I felt I could not defer my dream any longer.

Susan, your story makes me ache for you. You are such a talent, and everything I've read of yours resonates.

Misti, the same. You push envelopes, and that is something I admire.

Gessy, I am with you--I am aiming as high as I can, then if I must, pare back to the next level. What is there to lose? What is the hurry?

I hope your agent/editor meetings go well. So far, my requests for partials and fulls have primarily come from face-to-face meetings (although I did just get my first full request from a query!). I take every opportunity I can for those kind of encounters. Peace...

Misti Rainwater-Lites
May 11, 05:15pm

Thanks for the input, Susan, Gessy and Linda. Susan, I'm so sorry about your books. God! I'd be tearing my hair out strand by strand. That is so brutal. Luck has so much to do with it, yes...luck and timing. Sometimes the planets align.

Thanks, Linda! Your plan sounds pretty solid to me.

Gessy, it sounds like you have laid some pretty formidable groundwork. I am starstruck by Breadloaf and Columbia. When I was nineteen I was clueless about both...wish I had known more back then but I was a first generation college student. I come from a working class small Texas town(anti-intellectual, God fearing)background and that informs my writing. Hence, Bullshit Rodeo and me at 39 just now looking into applying for residencies/grants/fellowships. I don't mean to use that as an excuse. I know Larry McMurtry comes from a similar background and look at his wild success.

I wish much success to each of you ladies. So proud to be a part of this community. My writing has absolutely gotten stronger since I joined Fictionaut so thank you all for the inspiration and encouragement.

Gary Hardaway
May 11, 05:45pm

Gessy,

Publishing is in the midst of a sea-change and I suspect that within five years will become unrecognizable under our current understanding. Low demand work- literary fiction, poems, literary non-fiction – will probably follow the print-on-demand and e-book model already available through Amazon and a host of others. Self-publishing with professional help for money up front, in essence. Not in itself a bad thing. I believe the physical book as palpable artifact will remain with us but the electronic formats now evolving will become the norm. I think we will see hybrid e-print with sound effects (authors or actors reading the text as you follow along, etc.) and whiz-bang still and moving graphics. Multimedia on HGH and steroids blurring the distinctions among print, audio and video.

The stigma associated with “self-publishing” will disappear. Radiohead has already demonstrated that record companies (the music world’s publishers) can become a distant, horrific memory without a lot of effort. Big-ass publishers will persist to bring us tell-all memoirs, trash-novels, and business books. Nimble little publishers will proliferate to serve writers with reputations and self-publishing with professional cover/support/marketing will become the mainstay of the new and cantankerous old.

Speaking strictly for myself, writing, designing, and finding a printer for your own books and book-lets is great fun. I invented my own publishing house (Muted Horn Press, from Pynchon’s muted post horns in The Crying of Lot 49) back in 1975. I published three chapbooks and one full-length book of poems under that impress. My father printed the first two (chapbooks) on a little offset printing press he ran at his place of work using paper donated by his paper supplier. The third (a microchapbook) was very nicely done by PIP (Postal Instant Press, which became Kinkos and then was bought out by FedEx). The book was printed by the aforementioned FedEx. If I do it again, FedEx will not be involved. Inflexible and expensive FedEx can kiss my ass.

For what it’s worth,
Gary

Gessy Alvarez
May 12, 01:49am

Gary, I'm intrigued by your story. I agree times are a-changing. I wonder about self-published work, do you hire an editor to look at your work or is it a one-man operation?

I'm a punk child at heart and the DIY approach to me seems ideal to me.

Gary Hardaway
May 12, 03:03am

Gessy, a trusted editor is always a good thing. One who will work for free is the real trick!

A good starting point would be to select the pieces you want published and ask someone whose judgment you trust to cull the best work and suggest an arrangement/ordering for best effect. If it's a novel, perhaps the approach would have to be a bit different and the guidance/suggestions more truly editorial.

Proofreading would be a next step followed by tests of general layout and notes about overall book design. Word processing and book publishing software make this easier today. In 1975, all I had was an IBM Executive typewriter and Presstype sheets for cover and title pages. The goal is camera ready work (old-fashioned) or a transmissible file. If you know any graphic designers or commercial artists, their suggestions and insights would be invaluable.

If I decide to try it again, I'll be a lot more selective about the print shop and do some serious shopping.

Ann Bogle
May 12, 07:14pm

I have reflected that it is a dangerous thing when we are limited to receiving credit for print publications and for "full-length" novels and collections. Remember that in poetry a "full-length" collection is 60 pages or more and that publishers (of poetry) seek collections of separate poems. They may have a bias toward book-length poems. Publishers and agents have seemed biased against "short story collections" for about two decades. That is true even when the publisher is independent and not mainstream. It is dangerous (even life-threatening and livelihood-threatening) when we (as readers and consumers and people who confer credit) discredit chapbooks, short collections (as short as poetry collections), e-collections, and so forth. I debuted in 2005 with XAM: Paragraph Series (Xexoxial Editions) (written in 1998). It is a color book and also a black/white free download. The length of the book is 28 pages, not because the publisher would not have printed a longer book, but because that is how long the book is, speaking artistically/aesthetically. Hiring committees still do not recognize short collections of prose, though they hire and promote based on short collections of poetry. Poetry, which cannot produce revenue, is subsidized by higher education. I have published four short collections (including a poetry chapbook). I have published 67 prose pieces separately under the aegis of literary journals. It is a dangerous situation (dangerous to livelihood) that academics still do not recognize variant contributions in prose (non-print and non-novel).

Ann Bogle
May 12, 09:02pm

I wrote "bias toward book-length poems," but I meant "bias against book-length poems." The reason for me to publish a long collection (or two) is to have access to it in the hand. The bias against self-publishing is significant and weighty and would discourage respected writers from looking at the work printed inside.

Sam Rasnake
May 12, 09:06pm

Absolutely agree with Ann. Chapbook is a collection. Music Like Dirt by Frank Bidart (Sarabande Books, 2002) is a chapbook of poems and was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize.

Susan Tepper
May 13, 08:49am

Re Sam: yes, the books are getting much smaller and still maintaining credibility. Recently Ann Beattie published a very short novel called Mrs. Nixon (about 100 pgs). Also, interestingly, "last years" Pulitzer winner in fiction came from a very small press, the Bellevue Literary Review. And the book was "produced small" in terms of the overall book size, and they used larger fonts to thicken the book. Another trick is thicker paper. These days readers are antsy, they want their fix fast. The book store front tables have a lot of much smaller books of commercially published fiction. It almost works against the author to write the 300 - 400 page novel. Of course its stil being done, but the sales are weak if you look at the online stats. It's all in flux, as Gary said. And self-published is far less stigmatized than it was even last year!!! But the key is to sell the books, and that is what is so difficult. I know a very fine author (extremely fine) who puts his books in a pushcart and sells a few at these flea market and craft fairs. It takes guts to put out a book these days, guts to keep from slitting your wrists. My book has been reviewed in countless good places and yet I'm still selling it book by book. You have to try not to get disheartened.

Ann Bogle
May 13, 10:21am

Susan, good points. Mrs. Nixon is 282 pages, however. I reviewed it in Rain Taxi. Market considerations may be different than academic considerations. The academic (subsidized writing) world is slower in changing because based in older models. What I mean by subsidized is that the authors are under no obligation to "sell their books" (as many copies as possible/get sales) or lose their jobs. Their jobs are not related to sales. I still practice single submissions whenever possible, even online, though many authors (poets/writers) switched to simultaneous submissions more than 20 years ago. That also slows the process. You suggest that selling books is the desire of the writer. For me, it is to have the writing in the hand and available to readers. Self-publishing is still a mistake among academic writers, among whom I trained, so for me, not viable. The writing would be rejected for it.

Ann Bogle
May 13, 03:13pm

I'm with Sam -- Bidart's chapbook counts as finalist for a Pulitzer -- yet the rules say chapbooks do not count, and the rules are the rules. If the rules change, I'll be there (already). I applied for four jobs this a.m. Now I'm readying for two book contests.

Susan Tepper
May 13, 05:41pm

Ann, I'm obviously confusing "Mrs. Nixon" with another bestselling author's book that landed around 100 pages. I will remember eventually, and post the book here just for the sake of my sanity...

Now as for what you said here about "selling books is the desire of the writer" I would counter by saying: Totally.

Find me a writer with a box of books and tell me that writer doesn't want to sell those books. Or at least give them away. If a writer goes through all the PAIN (yes, PAIN) to get a print book produced these days, then by god that writer wants the books read. Sold or given away. Sold is always better, it validates the writer. But the point is to have the books read. I have given away 23 of my Deer books to a library on Long Island for their book group last week. Another 12 will go to a friend for a class she is teaching at a college this summer.

The point, for me, has always been to get read. I happen to love holding a print journal or book. I was a library kid. I have given away far more books than I've ever sold. I like the idea of people reading and holding a book of mine. It's sensual, whereas someone reading my work on line is "distant." I'm a sensual type, hence I'll take print over electronic any day.

I doubt there is a writer in existence that would say "no thanks" to the offer of a print book.

Ann Bogle
May 13, 06:04pm

Yes. Congratulations on getting your book into a book group and class, Susan!

Susan Tepper
May 13, 06:06pm

To Misti: Yes, I pulled my hair out (figuratively) during the harpercollins experience. But I learned a few things too: what happened to me has happened to many writers. Contracts can get cancelled on a whim and editors are notorious for moving around from pub house to house, or quitting entirely because they are paid low and have a huge workload. This business is cold and heartless. It's not much different from Hollywood, in many respects. People have screwed for big book deals the same way they screw for roles in films (I am not speaking in hyperbole here). But of course I'm not going to name names. Big name authors publishing books that "they don't really write" is on the rise too (they're probably too soused or lazy to write anymore). But they continue to pull in the big bucks. I was asked to ghost a book but I declined. It was unsavory to me and frankly I don't need to make money that way. But I know several writers who have ghosted for good money. See, I said I'd tell what I know here without putting on a spin.

Susan Tepper
May 13, 06:08pm

Ann, practically anyone can get their books into a book group or a class if they are willing to donate the books. It made me happy to know another 35 people would read Deer.

Ann Bogle
May 13, 06:12pm

Susan, is there no legal recourse when a contract has been broken?

Susan Tepper
May 13, 06:12pm

Here is something kind of karmic-sweet that I read someone say, and I think is a good thing for writers to do: Leave your book here and there for some stranger to pick up. I leave one on the shelf in the post office occassionally, or on the window ledge in Starbucks.

Susan Tepper
May 13, 06:16pm

Ann, I honestly don't know. My book was moved from imprint to imprint, and each time it was like starting from scratch. The imprints act like independent companies. I don't know what the others did who had their contracts cancelled. When my books went to the 4th imprint, they never got past square one and were returned to me. So I had no recourse. Also, it costs a fortune to have a lawsuit against a corporate conglomerate and most writers are starving artists. They take their book ms back, and walk away feeling awful.

Susan Tepper
May 13, 06:33pm

Even after all that shit, and I mean shit, I tried to get those 2 books published. I found an agent who was horrible, and though we rec'd some amazing letters from top publishing houses, the agent wouldn't work with them, saying: "No, we will move on to the next."
The whole experience shaved about 5 years off my life. I mean that. Eventually I dumped that agent.
But by that time the market had changed and those books had grown 'cold' for me (and for the subsequent agents I sent them to, because I couldn't get a bite).
So those two full length novels remain unpublished. As does the third full length one I completed about two years ago (the humor novel).
So, that's that.

Ann Bogle
May 14, 03:05pm

Thanks for sharing this story, Susan. It's very disappointing to realize that your agent did not act on promising letters from editors.

Phoebe Wilcox
May 14, 04:18pm

I met my publisher in a coffee shop and she offered to publish my book after hearing me read a bunch of times. I had delusions of grandeur and thought I was going to make the big time just like THAT, wham bam thank you, M'am. Then came reality. It's been out over a year and OMG I didn't make the big time, so I'm coming down off my high and mighty cloud now. But I'm still happy I got it published finally. And still hope to make enough royalties to maybe go on a shopping spree at the Salvation Army someday!

Susan Tepper
May 14, 04:33pm

Phoebe's book is quite wonderful, and was excerpted as a story on Fictionaut and talked about in the Monday Chat. Yes, Phoebe, I hear you: the salvation army. hahaha!

Ann: Yes, my agent was the worst. She could have easily said to the publishers: We will work with you to correct any difficulties you are experiencing with the book.

I was desperate for her to say that. She refused. That is what any agent "in their right mind" would have done.

I have since heard similar horror stories. Some agents are actually jealous of the writers, some are wannabee writers. Some even try and publish their own books, and some suceed at it.

If things with an agent seem "off" from the beginning, run away from that agent. I was so stupid to stay with her for the two years.

And get this: (the one I had before her lost my book manuscript!!! he left it on an airplane. I'm not kidding).

Gessy Alvarez
May 17, 12:45am

Thanks all for sharing...
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