Forum / Commenting on stories

Kathy Conde
Jun 23, 10:12pm

I would like to know what you all think about the kind of comments that are appropriate on the stories. I know that when you like a story, it's good to say so. What I'm wondering is whether writers like to get suggestions for small changes or whether this is not the place for that. (I've already done it and am asking after the fact--sorry!) I know this is not a workshop site, but I've seen a few suggestions here and there. As I'm writing this, I think I like that it's not a workshop site, so maybe I've answered my own question. I like what this site is doing--giving encouragement and positive feedback when writers feel a piece merits it. Still, I'd love to know you take on this.

Joani Reese
Jun 23, 10:22pm

Hi Kathy: A few of us have a private group where writers post work for critique that's not quite ready for prime-time. If you'd like to be a member, send me a note. The big board is not necessarily for critique, but I, too, have been unable to curb my helpful side from time to time.

Kathy Conde
Jun 23, 11:15pm

Thanks, JP. After I wrote my question, I was thinking that critique-type comments on the stories published could become overwhelming and feel less supportive than the comments of appreciation where merited. Thanks for the invitation to the critique group. I'll pass for now because I have a number of writers I meet with in my area. But thank you!

Bill Yarrow
Jun 23, 11:27pm

Kathy,

For me, helpful suggestions are always welcome. I'm made a number of changes to my pieces based on observant and insightful suggestions from members of Fictionaut.

I was personally very happy when I saw you made a suggestion on a piece in the comments area. I also thought it was a very good suggestion politely offered.

We're all in this together. My philosophy is let's help each other out if we can. What are we all after? Making our pieces the best they can be. Suggestions are acts of goodwill, not tampering, not malice. No one is forced to act on a suggestion anyway.

The short answer to your question ("What I'm wondering is whether writers like to get suggestions for small changes") is (and I speak only for myself though I hope others agree with me) "Yes."

Kathy Conde
Jun 24, 12:30am

Bill,

Thanks for this thoughtful response. The writer had already told me I wasn't out of line and that she appreciated my read, so I felt a better, but I'm so glad to get this response from you too. You're right, suggestions are an act of goodwill, love for the writing even. I only feel the urge to make a suggestion if I really love the piece enough (unless it's in a critique group and then I push beyond that inclination to offer something anyway).

Thank you so much for this feedback.

Kathy

Bill Yarrow
Jun 24, 02:29am

"I only feel the urge to make a suggestion if I really love the piece enough."

You express EXACTLY how I feel. If I have a suggestion, I offer that suggestion only about stories or poems I really like.

MaryAnne Kolton
Jun 24, 04:33am

Kathy, when I first came here I didn't understand the process at all. It appeared that if you liked someone's work you commented and faved. If you didn't care for it, you just ignored it. And then I started thinking what about all those people who get 110 views and no comments or faves? They must be at a complete loss to know what they've done wrong. Well, some of them any way. I do agree with Bill about liking a piece enough to suggest, however, I think some of us with already fragile egos would prefer not to be advised in public. I've gotten excellent advice from the private group The Wood Shed and in my humble opinion, if one is kind enough to offer a suggestion, the best place to do it might be by private'messaging' the writer. That way no one feels singled out. I also think that even if I'm not crazy in love with a piece and I see a writer with "potential" I want to let him/her know that and offer any help I can. I have this great fear of open suggestions turning into hurt feelings at some point. The plus side of private 'messaging' any comments I might make is that I have ended up having some great conversations with interesting people.

One of my favorite rules from a Guardian piece "Remember: when people tell you something's wrong or doesn't work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you EXACTLY what they think is wrong and EXACTLY how to fix it, even to the point of giving you the words to write, they are almost always wrong."

Marcus has often caught a typo or a mispelling in my work and I love him for pointing it out, because I know it's done out of care and respect for me. If only we could be sure every one would do it that way.

I must admit when I found the private 'messaging' option beneath the "follow" tag in the writer's profile I immediately assumed that it was for sharing thoughts privately about that person's work. Just another option. . .Mar

MaryAnne Kolton
Jun 24, 04:44am

PS Kathy, I love you for coming right out and asking these questions. While there are no rules to speak of here - there are some unwritten rules that JLD was kind enough to point out to me - like waiting until your piece leaves the front page to post another one, etc. . .Perhaps, one of the founders might post a list of "suggestions" for newcomers?

Christopher Allen
Jun 24, 09:41am

Hey, Kathy,
If I see a typo in a piece I send the writer a private message. If I find fault with a piece that has already been published, I don't say anything. It's been published, so I don't think commenting is appropriate. It's a hard call, though. For unpublished pieces, as long as comments are meant constructively (and from you I'm sure they always would be), I don't see the harm.

Jim V
Jun 24, 10:14am

Ditto to what Chris said.

Susan Gibb
Jun 24, 12:31pm

Agree with Christopher and MaryAnne and Bill with the caveat that if a writer wants critique or suggestions, and posts it to the front page, I'll do so in the comment section ONLY if it's been asked for in the Author's Notes box. Otherwise, yes, corrections on published pieces will only make the writer feel awful, even typos. Typos I will mention in the comments if I catch them. I welcome suggestions and usually gauge from the comments whether a piece is good, great, or sucks big time and may pull it and work on it from there.

Bill Yarrow
Jun 24, 12:57pm

"It's been published, so I don't think commenting is appropriate."
Chris, that makes sense to me.

On the other hand, I've had pieces published that I still tinker with, so I'm not adverse at all to hearing honest commentary on published works.

Publishing puts it out there, but does not necessarily "finish" the work. Our work is never exempt from scrutiny. If we look hard, things can always be improved.

When I put a published piece in Fictionaut, I often get out the fine sandpaper before I publish it to Fictionaut. I indicate this in my comment by saying, "A version of this poem appeared in..."

MichaelDickes
Jun 24, 01:12pm

When I get an email from a writer I respect apologizing for pointing out a typo in one of my pieces because of this forum topic, I know somethin's up.

I have grown as writer because of the critiques I've received. I have read and enjoyed some very fine work here. I have networked and shared publishing opportunities here. I have met and enjoyed communicating with like-minded people here, who I consider friends.

I have, however, as of late, become disenchanted with the social aspect of the site, with the "inner circle" and the sad and lonely FAVEores.

I does not serve our craft to kiss each other's backsides so that the FAV be returned; nor to create on line mags that are primarily only read by writers. It serves us best when there is honest, constructive criticism, support, yes praise BUT NOT ALL THE TIME - it must be earned, and publishing ops shared.

I find the Woodshed group to be of use and really a great model for the entire FN site.

Do away with the FAV. If not FN runs the risk of eventually becoming inbred playing banjos and singing "I'm my own grandpa!" Well, grandpa couldn't write worth a shit and he was ugly and he ate his own children and the only thing he could write was "Raaar, i is a bare raaaaarrrrrrr."

Christopher Allen
Jun 24, 04:28pm

Hear hear!

J. Mykell Collinz
Jun 24, 05:41pm

I rave the fav, sad and lonely.

MaryAnne Kolton
Jun 24, 09:40pm

To all of the above: I try to read every piece of new work posted on the front page. Obviously that's a lofty goal and obviously not always possible. I think the new people are just as deserving of a read as our friends. Sometimes I will fave a piece, then message the writer privately regarding how I think a poem or story might be made even stronger or how I feel about the fact that there is a lot of potential in this persons work and they should keep writing.

Some people here just do consistently good work! I don't fave them because they fave me. I don't even fave my own husband on every piece he writes!

Yes, there is a sense of community here and yes we all have made some special friends here. And, yes, there are some writers I look forward to reading more than others - not because I expect a fave, but because they are just plain good.

It's amazing how many times I take the time to read the work of an unfamiliar name and am very pleasantly surprised. Same with short versus long. Shorts get read far more often than long stories. And that is really a shame.

Regardless of the faults with the fictionaut site and there are a few, I write more when I'm active here and I seem to write better. . . .Mar

MaryAnne Kolton
Jun 24, 09:54pm

Susan, but what if you don't get any comments? Do you automatically think it's awful? I know I keep harping on this - and I know how busy everyone is - but why not take a moment and privately message a helpful hint to writers who are almost there but not quite?

"Too sexually explicit for this site, the profanity doesn't add anything to this piece, more dialogue needed etc.etc. Not commenting at all doesn't help them at all and can be very discouraging. . .

Susan Tepper made a public suggestion about the form of a recent poem of mine. She made it tactfully, respectfully and I knew she had my best interests at heart. What a wonderful difference it made! I'm just afraid not all will be as tactful and caring as she was and, as I said before, hurt feelings will be the end result. . . .

W.F. Lantry
Jun 25, 12:08am

I don't think of this site as a workshop, more like a bunch of friends sitting around swapping stories. It lets us feed off of each other's creativity, which is always good. But that doesn't mean we can't say to each other, once in a while, "Hey, that was good, but have you thought of trying this other thing?" Isn't that what friends do for each other? ;)

Thanks,

Bill

James Lloyd Davis
Jun 25, 12:26am

It's interesting to hear different perspectives on this, a subject that's been broached here before.

Like any such place, you get benefits back from Fictionaut in pretty much the same measure you are willing to invest. Spend the time to read other writers, be gracious and as conscious of the feeling of others as you expect from them and the rewards are recognition, yes, but perhaps the greatest benefit may be the incentive to write more and write better than you normally do ... and it gives us the opportunity to experiment, to try out new modes of expression, new forms, styles and the kind of dialogue we don't normally inject into our work.

Short fiction and poetry seems to get more attention. That's to be expected when the exposure for any piece on the front page is so brief. Also, the piece that draws the most attention is the one that ... through the choice of a title and the 'grab' of the brief extract you choose to display ... attracts the reader. You can learn from that. You can learn from what does or does not succeed by the comments and the infamous 'fave.'

I have to say, though, that the quality of work I see on this site is far and above what you see in 'similar' sites online.

Yes, it's true that the name of the author here has some weight in determining the attention it draws, and there are writers within specific groups and genres that continually read work similar to their own to the exclusion of others ... but just as it is in the literary world at large, you can be certain that if a writer does not produce reasonably consistent quality, an author's name will mean little over time.

The name of the game, if it is a game, is competition, something we all face as writers in the real world. Here at Fn, we have that same cruel literary world in a microcosm, each of us seeking to find a greater audience for our work. What better laboratory could a writer find in which to learn?

Elimination of the fave system might be more in keeping with the desires of some, a concession to egalitarian concepts, but it won't make anyone push themselves if they have no incentive to do so. Faves are incentives after all ... and if that's the reason I see so much good work here, I'm all for keeping it.

Michael Dickes
Jun 25, 02:29am

I like The Woodshop very much and have gotten many a glass of brutally honest critiques. Sometimes I agree...sometimes I don't. I have also receive a fair amount of positive remarks. Sometimes I agree...sometimes I don't. As far as the fav goes, I don't care if it stays or goes. I don't pay it much mind anymore.

stephen hastings-king
Jun 25, 02:32am

o i don't know....as for commenting on the work that folk do in the community, there's a stupid matter that's nonetheless a significant factor for me anyway---time. there isn't enough of it. i'd love to read everything that's posted here. but i can't. it's this whole evil life-sucking void that is corporate life. when breaks present themselves, i read stuff and typically enjoy and learn from it....there are a LOT of very good writers who participate in this community. i consider myself fortunate to be a little, erratic part of it. but i expect that everyone manages the same constraint one way or another and that it's more a Thing for me because i've found myself (unaccountably) busy of late.

as for my relation to comments...i learn a lot from comments and from their absence.

i feel like i'm still learning how to work the forms i use. i know that "experimental" writing comes with some consistent questions--the main question is double-sided: what i can assume about readers/what explanations do i need to build into a piece. that i'm definitely still learning. sometimes i get the balances right and sometimes i don't. often the comments are a really useful index of that. but it's a process, particularly in micro-forms. and this community is particular (there are things folk like and things folk don't and you develop a sense of which pieces will fall where over time)

there are types of pieces that won't get a response here i've found. political pieces for example. it doesn't bother me, but i'm not sure why it happens. maybe they're read as confrontational. or maybe the pieces suck and i can't see it because they make me laugh. it's hard to know because many things can be true simultaneously.

i don't have a particular opinion about faves except that they foster a degree of competitiveness. and that is, i think, just some retrograde capitalist thing that gets dragged into this space, which at the level of process (making things) has nothing to do with capitalist forms of production. but after a piece is made, there are choices to be made about brand construction, how to go about it and how aggressive to be in that regard. it appears that for some folk faves are an index of that. but i don't see it as necessarily a problem with the fave system itself. but this is the way of the world. i live about 50 feet from a salt marsh. there are bugs. i don't like a lot of them. but i deal.

Sam Rasnake
Jun 25, 03:59am

I consider – and I’m only speaking of my personal view which most see in a different way, and that’s fine – the public wall a published venue - works read by Fictionaut members and anyone with Internet access that wonders in - or follows links located at Facebook, Twitter, and the like. That's the main reason I only post published works on the public wall.

There are many good private workshops here where the meat and potatoes of drafts can work out their own salvations.

As for comments, I like to read them, and I like to give them - on pieces posted to the public wall and pieces posted to private groups that I have access to.

Sam Rasnake
Jun 25, 04:01am

That should be "wanders in" - though there's a good bit of wondering done as well.

MaryAnne Kolton
Jun 25, 04:12am

Sam,
How I wish I had known that. Like you, many Lit Mags consider work published here as "previously published". I received three rejection notices from the same venue stating that the the work I sent them was not eligible because of that. They just Googled me and found every piece I had posted on the wall. As I said, sure wish there was some kind of fictionaut beginners manual to explain some of the finer points of posting, commenting, etc.. ..

Christopher Allen
Jun 25, 06:28am

Hey, MaryAnne,
Last year there was a bit of an uproar when I elatedly posted my winning story at The Smoking Poet on Fictionaut. The editor contacted me within an hour. She wasn't happy.

I think this information is somewhere, but I'm one of those guys who starts to put together a cabinet without reading the directions. Fictionaut was no different.

Marcus Speh
Jun 25, 08:32am

these days i don't have too much time during the term and i don't get to read everything that i'd like to read (regretfully, especially longer stories elude my wandering attention) — but when i read i so enjoy commenting.

to me, a comment is a very short work of creative nonfiction.

some comments, of course, are merely encouraging. i think any new member deserves a fat round of applause if their work is any good just for putting it out here. the influx of new fiction & poetry is what keeps the site alive as a community.

i've never really engaged with any of the workshops — alas i don't have much experience with giving or accepting substantial suggestions. it's not the virtual situation, i think: at home, i greet every attempt of my editor-wife to edit and help me with inappropriate amount of hostility. regretfully, she is always right.

i'm not longer worried about rejections based on previous publication here or at kaffe in katmandu or on one of my blogs: there are so many venues. and there is so much writing still in me. it never seems to stop.

i can't argue against the fave system because i am naturally competitive (with pretty high ethical standards) and it gives me a boost every day to see my pieces up on the wall.

i write to be read and being up there means that a lot more people get to see what i've done, which makes me happy. when i'm up there too long, i tend to feel bad though. too much attention is not good for one's character. my grandma taught me that and she's been right so far.

at the same time - perhaps paradoxically - i'm not affected if a piece by me that i really like is not favored by others here. i must be the ultimate judge of my own work because, most of the time, i'm alone with it. i think that, as we go into the age of global digital communities, writing and reading will change also. though i cannot exactly foresee how, i accept this situation. (see <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/discussion/comment-permalink/11312989">here</a> for a longer comment on this issue in the context of the self-publishing phenomenon). more than that, i think as a natural (online) networker i think i can make the most of it.

but i believe anyone can, even less networking types. the truth is that fictionaut and the dozen other high places like it are like a continuous workshop. we've never had anything like it in the history of creativity. i'm excited just writing this sentence.

the commenting and fave-system at fictionaut is only the tiny, shiny tip of a newly formed iceberg of much more sociable writing.

of course, all the other rules of writing still apply, perhaps even more so, since so many more people parade their writing in front of our very eyes.

Joani Reese
Jun 25, 12:35pm

What a great thread with so many thoughtful and interesting takes on Fictionaut. Clearly, the site means many different things to people. My favorite aspect is the interplay of writers of every stripe and the opportunity to get to "know" people I would never have had the chance to connect with anywhere else. I've read some startlingly good work here and been inspired by certain pieces to try new approaches in my own writing I might not otherwise have considered.

As for the favorite system, I agree that it's a microcosm of the competition a writer experiences in the larger world and thus is no different than real world responses to submitted writing. I do sense that some people use it for purposes other than what it was originally intended, but isn't that, too, the way the real world works sometimes? I have been in "popular" groups and I have stood outside windows with my face pressed against the glass... In is better but not necessarily more conducive to creativity.

I write slowly and sporadically and so I don't have a lot of work to put on the big board, but I do appreciate being able to post drafts at The Woodshed knowing how generous the people there will be with their honesty and their suggestions.

As for submitting work already placed here, there are venues such as THIS Literary Magazine, where I am one of the poetry editors, that will happily accept work posted at Fictionaut as long as the author notes its publication at THIS. When a venue accepts any work I've put up here, I usually take it down until after it's been published, then I put it back with a note on its publication place and date. The key is to read submission guidelines carefully and when in doubt, take your piece down until it finds the right home in the larger writing world.

Fictionaut is not perfect. What is? But it has been a great resource for me, and I appreciate all the benefits of being a member.

Roberta
Jun 25, 01:46pm

Hm, good thread. The responses are making me thoughtful. It's making me rethink my commenting style slightly. I'm never entirely sure if people actually want any kind of critique or just positive feedback. (Though I'd never offer the former without the latter.)

Also fwiw, Bill Yarrow, with your comments, I notice you do sometimes point out minor glitches within pieces. To me, that feels really helpful feedback to receive. It never feels like it's being done maliciously or nitpicking for the hell of it - they're generally points that improve a given piece of work.

I'm not sure that personally I'd mind that kind of comment on a previously pubbed piece of work - I'll sometimes rework pieces slightly post-publication anyway - and some of us may have published pieces we may later include within collections. For my own stuff, if I've submitted a piece, it's been published? At that point it's 'finished' to me - I'm happy with it, feel that it's realised. But I don't necessarily always think of 'finished' in that instance as being something that lasts forever. It may be finished at one point in time, later I may go back into it, change it, it becomes finished all over again.

Also re: the places that will/won't accept work that's appeared on fnaut. If I'm in doubt, I tend to write a note before submitting work to a given place to check if they're happy with submissions that have already appeared here. (If that's okayed and the piece/s accepted, I tend to take it down from here then til post-publication.)
The definition of 'published' is just so variable -- some places will obv accept work that's appeared in personal blogs or been workshopped online. And sometimes they'll loosely include fnaut in those categories.

Is it worth having a separate thread listing some venues we're encountered that will accept work that's appeared here? (And some that don't.)

David Ackley
Jun 25, 03:15pm

Roberta,
There is such a thread(listing fictionaut accepting venues). Digging it up to post it over this one.

MaryAnne Kolton
Jun 25, 08:09pm

JP, Really appreciate your input. It's my impression that there is no such thing as "taking your work down", though. Yes, it can be deleted from FN, but it is still out there on the internet for anyone to read, or as I have recently discovered, pull bits of to use in blogs. So if an editor who considers FN work as previously published chooses to Google you and that work comes up on FN you will be eliminated. Nothing we can do about that. Too bad, because I like getting a feel of how a piece is going to be accepted before I send it off. I am careful, now, not to put anything on FN than I intend to send out. And I don't feel comfortable sending everything to the Woodshed. Know you all are busy. Have to say I miss the feedback from FN readers.

Christopher Allen
Jun 26, 06:35am

Hey, MaryAnne,
When I removed my story last year, the link still appeared on Google, but it led to a "This content has been removed" message.

Gill Hoffs
Jun 26, 08:47am

It's been extremely interesting reading this discussion and I'm keen to learn [especially since I'm so new both here and to the writing world in general].

The thing I'd maybe add is that if I read a piece that's already had a lot of comments, especially the ones where people have taken the time to post their favourite quotes from the piece, I sometimes feel as if I have nothing to add there: it's been said already.

I do try to take the time to comment on pieces I've enjoyed or been stirred by, and I p.m. people if I think there's a significant typo [not always, just if I get the feeling they'd welcome the help].

I especially try to make time to comment on stories that haven't been commented on, as I [rightly or wrongly] have a strong love for the underdog, and I know how much I enjoy receiving comments on mine.

Personally, I am having a grand time on Fn, and find what I read stimulating the vast majority of the time, if not downright entertaining, informative and fun. If somebody notices something amiss with one of my pieces I'd be really grateful if they p.m.'d me about it. Every comment is a lovely surprise, and the faves are exciting - but not why I write.

All the best, guys!

Michael Dickes
Jun 26, 01:56pm

Interesting to read the different perspectives here. I wanted to add that, in this type of venue, I WANT to know what is wrong with a piece I'm working on. I don't have to agree, but quite often I do and am grateful for being pushed to write better...or spell batter...or punct.ua-te+ beeterous. If I didn't live with a great editor, I'd be screwed! Wait...I mean...awwwwwwggggrrrrrmphhh

MaryAnne Kolton
Jun 26, 07:15pm

Gill, I just knew you were another underdog lover - When someone, new people especially, put something on the wall and get no comments or faves, I try to find one good thing to say to them even if it's "The potential is here. Keep writing!"

Sam Rasnake
Jun 26, 07:31pm

Blue Fifth Review has published two or three pieces that were first posted to public view at Fictionaut. If I remember correctly, I solicited the pieces.

BFR's policy is that we will consider & accept work that has been "posted on a personal or public blog, Myspace, Facebook page, or workshop site with the following stipulation: Should the submission be accepted at Blue Fifth Review, the work should be removed from all posts and archives. If, however, publication credit, listing Blue Fifth Review, is added to the posted page of the online site, the work may remain in all posts and archives."

The works we've accepted that had appeared previously at FN were an easy fix. The authors only needed to add a note & link to the posted piece's author's note. If the note/link couldn't be added, we would ask that the work be removed from the site.

Here's BFR's guideline link:
http://bluefifthreview.wordpress.com/submission-guidelines/

Kathy Conde
Jun 26, 11:50pm

I've enjoyed reading all these posts. I'm a new member at Fictionaut and the first thing I noticed about this community is the intelligence in abundance here. As I read the stories and the comments on stories, I had the feeling many times that it looked like practice in writing blurbs. I think that's a very good thing--to practice articulating what we like about a piece of writing when we like it. To give intelligent articulation about the work makes us reach deeper into our understanding of both the piece and creative writing itself.

I also wanted to mention something about revision after a piece has already been published in a literary magazine or other venue. All of my published stories have gone through a lot of revision as I work on my short story collection. Placing them together brings up revision needs, as does time. I'm currently reading Amy Bloom's collection, A BLIND MAN CAN SEE HOW MUCH I LOVE YOU, thanks to Jen Knox for recommending her (THANK YOU!)and I was struck by the acknowledgements (under the copyright info). Here are a couple acknowledgements for first publication of stories in the collection: "Night Vision" first appeared, in slightly different form, in THE NEW YORKER, February 16, 1998. "The Story" first appeared, in different form, in STORY, September 1999. There was another from the New Yorker, one from Zoetrope, and one from an anthology, and all of the ones previously published said "slightyly different form" or "different form" and one had a different title. So she had even revised the ones that were published in The New Yorker! I think it's a good practice.

Sam Rasnake
Jun 27, 12:06pm

It is a good practice.

A piece isn't right until it's right - or later. Or never.

I think we just abandon them on the path, and that's ok.
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