Forum / "Why I dropped out of my poetry MFA program" by Steve Roggenbuck

  • Frankie Saxx
    Feb 15, 03:31pm

    http://livemylief.com/post/76388729646/in-september-2010-i-started-the-poetry-mfa-program

    Anyone else read this?

    I thought it was well considered & the decision clearly made sense for him & he made some sepecific points that I think apply more widely than just MFA programs.

    "there is no “good writing” that is totaly aside from personal preference. of course you can learn from people who have different taste from you, but many professors (and writers in general) believe that what they like is actually “good writing” and what they dislike is “bad writing,” so that makes the process a lot harder."

    I'm pretty sure that's not universally true. (I've surfed the poetry tag on Tumblr.) But at the level he's talking about, where people are being accepted into MFA programs, there's probably not much truly bad writing going on. (Or here, for instance. I sometimes see pieces that just don't do it for me, but rarely, rarely because the writing is "bad".)

    "when you try to please people outside your ideal audience, you often end up ruining aspects of your work that really make it outstanding to its right audience."

    Which I very much agree with. Not sure how you identify your right audience though. Are they just the people that love what you do? Or if you have no audience, should you keep doing what you do, Field of Dreams style, or is it you that needs to change?

    If you care about an audience. How much should you care about an audience? Should you care about an audience? ("Should" feels like such a loaded word there.)

    And this (especially this):

    "there can be pressures to conform or seek imperfect audiences outside of MFA programs too, i think chasing reblogs and likes on social networks can cause similar problems!"

    Which brings to mind Marcus's recent essay in Awkword Papercut & his current retirement from social media. I think maybe art doesn't happen in a vacuum, but maybe sometimes it could stand to take its influences and go incubate in one for a while.

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    Chris Okum
    Feb 15, 03:52pm

    Here's my favorite Steve Roggenbuck poem:

    Me me me me me me
    me me
    me Me me me

    Me me Me Me
    me me me me me
    Me

    Me
    Me
    Me
    Me
    Me
    Me me me me me me me

    Me

  • Frankie Saxx
    Feb 15, 04:05pm

    Was that in Helvetica? I forget.

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    Carol Reid
    Feb 15, 04:12pm

    I have a lot of ambivalence toward the world of MFAs. In the big picture, I don't think participating in an MFA program will "ruin your poetry" (or fiction or other art) any more than working at Dairy Queen or in a bank or a bar will ruin your poetry.

    The strongest and most valid concern, to me, is the very real burden of financial debt incurred by these very expensive programs. Debt can suck a person's soul dry more than so many other life experiences.

    Last year I was part of a group of writers at a five week "writing studio". I was the only one of the 24 there who had not spent a huge amount of time in school and did not have several degrees including an MFA. Being in school certainly didn't harm their writing, it was magnificent! (yeah, I felt intimidated at first, but then just got over it).

    The question of an audience is tricky and hard to answer without using the "should" word.

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    Chris Okum
    Feb 15, 05:09pm

    How could any teacher hope to puncture the massive titanium-shellacked bubble of fame and self-regard this young man has built around himself? And how can someone this busy promoting himself via the slophouse ethics of social media ever hope to be anything more than a mediocre talent? When do these kids have time to write? Maybe if he stopped jerking himself off all day he would be able to concentrate a little more on the language he uses and stop producing what amounts to nothing more than autistic-style journal entries a la Tao Lin, of whom this guy is obviously a epigone.

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    Chris Okum
    Feb 15, 05:10pm

    Oh, and you get out of a academic program what you put in to it. That sounds like a bromide and it is and it also happens to be true.

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    whatwouldbukowskido
    Feb 15, 07:08pm

    Purpose:

    Loyalty to the Mystery, the birthing of IT into complete focus in order to make IT manifest on the page completely:

    The only breast it will ever lap.

    Result:

    People might like it. People might not like it.

    Bu:

    IT will have been completely loved/understood/birthed/raised to its highest by its creator.

    You can't give a damn about what people think.

    You can only think abut IT.

    (it's YOUR child)

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    Joani Reese
    Feb 15, 07:56pm

    I walked away with an MFA but not owing a cent. I taught one class a semester, was paid a stipend for doing so, and my tuition was completely covered by the university. I also went into an MFA program at 40. My work was pretty much solid already, so I wasn't at too much risk of being wrongly/badly/unnecessarily (as is often the argument against such programs) influenced by my professors. I studied with professional scholars and writers vastly disparate in approach and style, and my two years in the program were the best experience with other writers and camaraderie I have ever had. I'm pretty sure my writing could never be called formulaic. An MFA program cannot make a good writer, but it can teach writers the rules so they can break them knowledgeably. I like that part best of all. The assigned reading was amazing, too, considering I was not brought up during a time when the classics were regularly taught as part of the curriculum. It was heaven.

  • Frankie Saxx
    Feb 15, 08:27pm

    @Carol

    I think that's a concern with a lot of higher education these days, not just MFAs. If it's not job training like medical school or law school.

    @Chris

    "you get out [...] what you put in to it." True for most things. I thought that when I was reading it, but I think, also, Roggenbuck had a clear idea of what he wanted to get out of it, and he realized he wasn't in an environment that would give him that.

    I finished Teipei finally. I think it's different from Roggenbuck, though.

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    James Lloyd Davis
    Feb 15, 08:57pm

    I flashed on the linked site and was undermazed by the proliferation of selfies thereon, so I didn't read the article 'cause I don't really care why he quit.

    Everybody needs an ego, but everybody also needs to consider the other 7,213,510,114 people on the planet. Just trying to comprehend that number and its implications could help to balance anyone's ego.

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    James Lloyd Davis
    Feb 15, 08:57pm

    Maybe.

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    Chris Okum
    Feb 15, 09:12pm

    One more thing to add, and I'm being redundant: in order to be a pupil you have to be humble. You have to be open to the idea that maybe you don't know anything. That way your teacher's thoughts and ideas can be more readily absorbed. After reading this guy's essay and looking at his blog I see someone who's personality has already calcified. Because he already treats himself as a star. It's the toxic effect of the Warholization of our culture (and that's not a dig at Warhol because I love Warhol and think he is maybe the most interesting and mystifying American of the 20th century). I don't think all young writers are like this Roggenbuck character, and I hope because of the novelty of the technologies we now have to live with that his generation is kind of like the test case for how narcissistic people can be, but I see it in a lot of writers in his age range. They are so invested in themselves as characters and brands that they forget what is most important are the words. And I'm sorry, but after reading some of his poems, I totally get where his teachers were coming from. His poems are juvenile and have that faux-naif thing going on with them that I hate. He could have stood to taken some academic medicine from his poet teachers. It wouldn't have hurt. But it sounds like he wanted to join an MFA program in order to have his genius notarized, and when no one was too impressed he threw a fit and quit. And I agree with what James said above. As the kids like to say, Get over yourself. You're not that great. You're not that special. Maybe when he really learns that (and I doubt he ever will) he'll write a poem worth more than light chuckle. That's it. I'm done ranting. Bye.

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    Joani Reese
    Feb 15, 10:12pm

    Chris-- You rant well and not at all in a faux-naif way. I like it.

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    Tina Barry
    Feb 15, 10:26pm

    Just read his comments. He used misspelled words and was offended when a teacher asked him why. That's not exactly MFA material. It's a shame he's incurred so much debt.

  • Frankie Saxx
    Feb 15, 11:00pm

    @Chris: I don't have an issue with Roggenbuck's writing. I'm not going to evangelize enthusiastically for it, but he seems to have a clear idea of what he's trying to produce, and he seems happy with the result. Good on him. I'm also pretty okay with anyone that is maybe getting people (kids) excited about poetry and perpetuating the idea that they can make poems. Say what you like about Roggenbuck's poems, but they're not intimidating.

    And I totally didn't mean to start a discussion on the merits or value of Roggenbuck's poems, but I'm okay having that discussion. :)

    As far as callow youth goes, I was shallow as fuck in my twenties. Pretty sure I didn't so much think the world revolved around me as never considered the idea it didn't. A decade later, there's a whole 'nother crew of bright young things sure they're gonna save the world with art or apps or cryptocurrency. They might as well try while they have the energy.

    Also, what Joani said. Rant away. :)

    @Tina

    I did wonder in passing if he's gonna regret not finishing that MFA at some point.

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    Charlotte Hamrick
    Feb 16, 01:03am

    I read it and my take is that he's just a kid with an opinion. I think he makes some pretty good points about his personal experiences and about what he's learned works for him. What is "good" poetry or writing and what is " bad" is ultimately in the eyes of the reader and thank the goddess we don't all have to agree. His comments about " older poets" make some sense too. Older people may not get the abbreviated writing style of the young ones who've grown up with the internet and social sites. That doesn't make the old ones wrong and the young ones right, it just is. Writing about yourself and voicing your opinions on a blog doesn't make you a narcissist.

    As for MFA programs, I have no opinion.

    That is all.

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    Sally Houtman
    Feb 16, 08:42pm

    Finally got a chance to read this.

    What I got from it is that he's saying:

    "I enrolled in an MFA program to:

    A) take courses only from the professors whose poetry I like

    B) write only the kind of poetry that 'excites' me

    C) get only the kind of feedback I want to hear

    and, for some reason outside of my knowledge, it didn't work out.

    WAAAAAAH!"

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