Forum / it just hit me
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Carol ReidSep 26, 09:26pmMale writers outnumber female writers here by what? Ten to one? Perhaps not in membership but in visibility. Not one female writer on the current front page, only Charlotte on the fav list right now. Huh. Not a big deal ,just a bit odd.
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Chris OkumSep 26, 10:08pmI think it's strange too, Carol.
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James Lloyd DavisSep 27, 02:06amHadn't noticed, but yes.
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Charlotte HamrickSep 27, 04:24amI've definitely noticed but I've also noticed the men seem to be more active and prolific (in posting work and participating in forums)than the women, in general. I don't know what the secret algorithm-thingy is but I will say I almost always post a blurb about my new stuff here on social media. How the hell else will I get anybody outside Fn to read? heh.
We have some freaking fantastic women writers and I love reading their work. More, I say, more!
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J.A. PakSep 27, 05:05amIt feels like there used to be more women participating. Wonder if there's been a decline in the last few months.
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Jane FlettSep 27, 11:52amI have only just drifted back after leaving for quite a while. To be honest, it was after this thread:
http://fictionaut.com/forums/general/threads/2506
I really don't have the energy to be humorless feminist in the writing area of my life (I JUST WANT TO MAKE UP STORIES GODDAMMIT), but I also end up feeling pissed off and rubbish when people feel the need to write long essays defending why the rape jokes are so funny. Eh.
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James Lloyd DavisSep 27, 01:34pm
The atmosphere here became fractious and toxic for a while. It's been better lately, but that can change quickly. If this thread becomes that thread, I might get scarce again myself.
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Jane FlettSep 27, 01:51pm
Oh, ditto! I didn't bring that up because I want to talk about any of these things again (really, let's not), but as one possible reason why the ladies are not all over the Fictionaut.
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Gary HardawaySep 27, 02:02pmAll extant cultures, it seems to me, grant males a mammoth sense of entitlement to say whatever silly, vicious, vacuous, or sublime thing they have to say. Only recently have females felt equally empowered. I can only hope things will change further and faster.
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James Lloyd DavisSep 27, 04:31pm
Equality is the relevant word. Universal equality in all quarters of the social spectrum. Equality is the foundation of our American democracy, but as a concept, it's viewed with suspicion by many who should embrace it. Even among many American Christians, the idea that 'women should defer to their husbands as the Church to Christ' is as popular today as it was when it was the order of the day among ethnic Christian groups who practiced that idea in a purely social and cultural context. The practice was inimical to Christian concepts and the example of its Founder.
You don't often hear this verse, but it's in their Bible:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither MALE nor FEMALE: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Galatians 3:28
Equality for all. What a concept, as revolutionary today as it was two thousand years ago. Have we come all that far? I think not.
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Charlotte HamrickSep 27, 04:49pm
Well. Reading that thread was at once laborious and (sometimes) funny.
Anyone who thinks rape jokes are funny in any way is obviously clueless. It reeks of woman-hating.
Jane, I will always have your back in that regard and will happily join you in the humorless feminist corner although the best thing to do, IMO, is to ignore such drivel. I hope to see more of your work and more of other women, as well.
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strannikovSep 27, 05:59pmJames Lloyd: the Greek does not support your exegesis, unfortunately.
The "neither/nor" contrast (ouk/oude) used in v. 28a to distinguish Jew and Greek, slave and freedman, is not used in v. 28b for the contrast of male and female: Paul shifts to "ouk/kai": "there is no male and female".
Some commentators see the shift in usage as a Pauline polemic against the Hellenistic mystery religions still thriving in Asia Minor (where Galatia was) and, in the context of the discussion of baptism from which this verse is taken, as a contrasting commentary on Genesis 1:27.Paul never speaks of redemption in terms of androgyny.
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James Lloyd DavisSep 27, 08:33pm
Actually, Strannikov, my quote is from the King James Version and I'm not inclined to argue the validity or the presumed/assumed correctness of one Greek text source over another and the translation thereof. I gotta trust the Pilgrims on this one, since they had nothing to gain from the neither/nor decision.
People have been burned at the stake for less. The androgyny comment, though, is a nice touch.
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J.A. PakSep 27, 09:43pm
Women (and some of you men), you might find this Guardian article interesting: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-womens-blog-with-jane-martinson/2013/sep/27/women-writer-artist-academic-david-gilmour
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James Lloyd DavisSep 28, 12:01am
That's confusing. What are "Real guy-guys..."? Curious minds want to know.
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mxi woddSep 28, 12:30amThat would be:
"Tough guys with a heart of gold..."
Come on, James... you're familiar with that genre.
;-)
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James Lloyd DavisSep 28, 12:48am
Tough guys don't eat quiche. Me? I love the stuff. With hot sauce.
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mxi woddSep 28, 12:53am
I made a quiche once.
It was GONE (delicious) an hour later.
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Carol ReidSep 28, 01:03am
Don't give Gilmour's remarks much thought and less weight. He's not a U of T prof (not that it makes a lot of difference ), he's a sometime broadcaster and fairly successful author in Canada ( ditto)who teaches a course at U of T. He's just taking his turn at being dick of the week, in my opinion. And he now says he never said ...etc., etc.
Glad to see a few more females around this joint again, though.
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mxi woddSep 28, 01:10am
Every professor has the right to teach whatever course they want.
There are female professors who only teach female writers.
Does that make them cunts?
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Carol ReidSep 28, 01:15am
That would depend on the course description. In part.
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mxi woddSep 28, 01:19am
Exactly.
It's well-known (now) he only teaches writers he loves.
He loves THOSE writers.
Therefore he teaches THOSE writers.
Probably should have listed his class as Macho Male Writers 101.
But (believe me) female profs do the same thing all the time.
I am just SO TIRED of the blade cutting only one way.
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J.A. PakSep 28, 01:39am
Gilmour doesn't matter much except that he's part of a prevalent atmosphere: Wikipedia not having women in the fiction section (now corrected I believe), fewer and fewer women writers appearing in major magazines (I was shocked when someone tweeted that a recent issue of NYRB didn't have a single female contributor), the ghettoization of women writers in the "women's fiction" category, etc. Add to this the continuing attacks including death threats to women tweeters, sometimes for as bizarre a reason as merely wishing to have Jane Austen on a postage stamp. And the sexual intimidation/assaults of young girls using video and text. And the fact that in the US, police are less and less likely to investigate rape charges and when they do, judges reduce the sentences to 30 days because the rape wasn't violent enough. Add to that, add to that, add to that...
It is true that the blade cuts both ways, but more often than not, the blade is held by a man.
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Carol ReidSep 28, 01:46am
I hear you, J.A., loud and clear.
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Charlotte HamrickSep 28, 01:55am
Well and truly stated, J.A.
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J.A. PakSep 28, 02:24am
Sisters, I needed that support!
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mxi woddSep 28, 02:53am
Sisters!
(I have one)
Daughters!
(I have one)
Mothers!
(I HAD one)
I'll leave IT
with you.`
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Jane FlettSep 28, 09:14am
Okay. I am going to say this and then I am going to go and write a poem or have sex or do just about anything that is more interesting than arguing with people on the internet.
Yes, it is fucking different when there are courses specifically about women in literature.
And also, you know, it’s not racist if someone teaches a course about Black poetry at an institution where there is no parallel course about straight old white dude poetry!
And, hey! It’s not hetrophobic to have a course on queer literature!
Do I really need to explain why this is? Really? You do not understand the difference between these things?
The reason (other than EVERYTHING J.A. just said) is that teaching straight old white dude literature is the fucking dominant paradigm, and has been for thousands of years.
The reason is that three quarters of full professors in America are men and this isn’t about whether one person somewhere was once a dick, it’s about a institutionalised bias.
You know, like how women were not allowed to go to university for hundreds of years. Like how Oxford didn’t let women become members until 1920.
It’s about the fact that the moment women get together to talk about why they are blatantly massively underrepresented in something (see above: ten to one males on Fictionaut!) it takes less than 20 comments for a guy to walk in and complain how he is SO TIRED that feminists aren’t devoting exactly 50% of their time to fighting for the rights of men (because if you don’t do that, you’re sexist, am I right?)
And also about the final comment, because “I have female relations” gets a standing ovation from me for being even more ridiculous than “I’m not racist, I have a black friend.” Congratulations.
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Charlotte HamrickSep 28, 01:51pm
@jane, you wrote exactly what I was thinking in the next to the last paragraph. It never fails to happen. Nev.er.
Wish this could have been a thread about how to encourage and attract more women but, oh well. Now off to "write a poem or have sex..."
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Sam RasnakeSep 28, 02:41pmJane, your logic and passion are both sound.
I know this - three hundred years from now ... Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, the fiction of Flannery O'Connor, novels of Virginia Woolf, poetry of Elizabeth Bishop, Emily Dickinson, Wisława Szymborska, Anna Akhmatova, Ono no Komachi ... and, of course, Gertrude Stein.
~
Here some of the most important/influential writers - and I'm excluding important writers that FN brought in to post only one piece - who have had, at least at one time, a steady presence here at Fictionaut ... writing, reading, & commenting ... [based solely on the list of all-time top recommended "stories" on FN]:
Meg Pokrass
Kathy Fish
Julie Innis
Jane Hammons
Marcy Dermansky
Roxane Gay
Michelle Elvy[several of the above have more than one piece on the top 25 list]
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Charlotte HamrickSep 28, 05:18pm
Speaking of Roxane Gay........
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James Lloyd DavisSep 28, 06:04pm
Good article. I like the idea of stories, fiction, literature, whatever you want to call it, rightfully judged on content rather than the authors politics, race, gender, romantic inclinations, or willingness to be merchandised as a commodity. That said, the reality is that publishers have neither the time, inclination, or the staff with which to approach the benchmark of mere quality in content. Readers, they say, are unwilling to invest the cash in the unknown author, but will fall all over themselves to pay for the aura of clebrity. Publishers could care less about whether the book itself is all that worthy. The sale completes their engagement.
It's all about target audience, market share, profitability, so if writers as a class of producers want to change the standards, they need to do it themselves and take charge under the guiding principle they believe to be just and fair.
But when the activism starts, it's usually under the banner of "advance my unacknowledged group." Be it women, minorities, LGBT, whatever. Nothing wrong with that. But that's what happens. Then, there is the problem of objectivity, taste, preferences within the group.
I remember the startup of New American Review, which had the initial impetus to put forth the work of worthy, new, and unknown voices, but within a very short period of time, began to publish authors with names that were everywhere in print, like Philip Roth, Gunter Grass, E.L. Doctorow. Nothing wrong with that, either. But if you want an egalitarian press, you have to build it yourself, invest time, money, effort beyond the simplicity of merely writing.
Life is not fair, but nothing will change as the result of complaint.
Don't like the way things are? Make it different. A complaint is only a starting point.
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J.A. PakSep 28, 06:34pm
Here's an interesting blog post: "Why Are There So Many Stories About Girls and People of Color on Banned Books Lists?"
http://www.blogher.com/why-are-there-so-many-stories-about-girls-and-people-color-banned-books-lists
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Jane FlettSep 29, 05:47pm
Nice links, Charlotte & J.A., and those are some fine writers Sam!
James, I don't agree with this:
"But if you want an egalitarian press, you have to build it yourself, invest time, money, effort beyond the simplicity of merely writing.
Life is not fair, but nothing will change as the result of complaint.
Don't like the way things are? Make it different. A complaint is only a starting point."
Yes, we can set up small presses that operate this way--I've been on an editorial board in the past, whatever--but making a change isn't just about having some tiny magazine in the ocean of litmags that works this way.
(Aside from the fact, you know, I don't want to be an editor or a publisher right now. I want to be a writer. That shouldn't eliminate me from the conversation about these things. Hey, I'm also a reader. I'm part of the market for these magazines. I get to give my feedback.)
Of course, complaint is not the end of the story. But none of these conversations start without, well, starting the conversation. I don't think "nothing will change as the result of complaint"; I think that without talking about these things and working out what we would like to be different, nothing will ever be different.
Take VIDA for example: you could say that all they are doing is "complaining" by listing how the big guns are doing it wrong, but I think by focussing the conversation this way, they are making the editors of some publications look at their practices and take steps to change.
And surely that's what we want. Not one small press set up by me doing things my way, but the big ones making fundamental decisions about how they operate.
This is an interesting breakdown:
http://www.vidaweb.org/vida-count-2012-mic-check-redux
"Publishers have also begun to take it upon themselves to publicly account for their own numbers. Places like Harvard Review, Drunken Boat and Tin House are counting their authors each year. We do not think the significant jump in female authors reviewed at Tin House is temporary; they have bared the change in their attention and practices for the public record. Readers and writers, please take note."
So yes, we shouldn't JUST complain.
But we should talk about this stuff, without already having to have created the perfect alternative in order to have a voice.
We should support the magazines who are doing good in this regard: subscribe to them, submit to them, tell our friends to read them.
And then we should get down to "the simplicity of merely writing."
Because that is the sweet delicious luxury of being in the status quo: you don't have to choose where to devote your precious limited time and passion.
By telling women/minority/LGBT writers that they need to be doing this rather than writing, well, I don't think that is how real change will ever occur.
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James Lloyd DavisSep 29, 09:28pm
Yes, Jane. It ultimately comes down to this: Become the very best writer you can be. To that I would only add: Don't narrow yourself to the little presses that welcome you with open arms. Push hard and often at the point where you feel excluded by bias. Don't be discouraged by rejection. No one ever broke a barrier by avoiding it.
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J.A. PakSep 30, 03:45am
Jane, James, well said.
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James Lloyd DavisSep 30, 03:56pm
Easy enough for me to say, seeing as every time I submit something, feels like I'm sticking my little finger into a Cuisinart.
After a while, you'd think you'd develop a little insensitivity... but you don't.
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J.A. PakSep 30, 05:33pm
Know just what you mean, James. The Universe is cruel: makes the people most ill-suited for the publishing biz writers.
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