Forum / Need advice

  • David John King
    Jul 20, 04:37am

    I really need members to let me know if they think my last story, 'The Deal, works for readers outside of Australia.

    'The Deal" was posted to Fictionaut on July 09 so it's a few pages down. I did ask in my author's comment if people could let me know if it worked for international readers but received no response.

    I'm afraid that people outside of Australia will be unable to understand the welfare situation in Australia where people can be on the dole for years - even for life. In many other countries (especially the USA), it's simply not possible for this to happen.

    o I wonder if I'm not writing for a limited audience by choosing such subjects. What do you think?

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    Sally Houtman
    Jul 20, 08:00am

    The story is here:

    http://fictionaut.com/stories/david-john-king/the-deal

    (makes it easier for us weary folk)

    If the Aus thing is an issue, I didn't make it far enough in to find out. I found the subject/characters a bit.......um..........dry.

    Sorry.

  • Frankie Saxx
    Jul 20, 05:30pm

    I don't have any problem with the public assistance part. Maybe think about killing the first scene though. Like Sally, I found it dry. And unnecessary. I got the gist of what was happening without having it pre-explained and I think there'd be better tension as Harris's discomfort grows if I had discovered what was up along with him.

  • David John King
    Jul 21, 09:45am

    I must say, you people are probably right and I thank you very much for bringing my attention to the issue.

    Sally, when you say 'dry', what exactly do you mean? Do you mean, the subject/characters just don't interest you because you would rather read about different sort of characters and subject, or do you mean that the way it's written is not engaging enough? Very curious.

    Frankie, you have a vey good point. Sometimes in filmmaking, we do these expository scenes in which something is explained or set up for the 'dumb audience' and in the end, we realise we don't need it. It's insecurity, I guess. Will they get it? Will they get it?

  • Frankie Saxx
    Jul 21, 12:15pm

    @David

    Totally understand how that happens.

    I thought Harris and the group he was with were the meat of the story. (The rest felt a bit like moralizing about corrupt politicians, corrupt corporations, etc.) I would've read more about Harris & co. though.

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    Sally Houtman
    Jul 22, 07:20am

    "Sally, when you say 'dry', what exactly do you mean?"

    "the subject/characters just don't interest you"

    because

    "the way it's written is not engaging enough"

  • David John King
    Jul 22, 01:05pm

    Okay, Sally, that explains where you're coming from. It's not your type of thing. That's fine. I'm no great fan of the emotional style of writing. I think too much writing today is too gushy. I prefer a cooler, more intellectual style similar to that of Isaac Asimov and Arthur C. Clark. But that's me. We all have our personal likes and dislikes. Vive a la difference!

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    Matthew Robinson
    Jul 22, 06:02pm

    Wow! Quite a generalization there, David. (Also a bit defensive. Don't worry. You're among friends here.)

    So, "engaging" does not necessarily mean "emotional." In fact, it often means something closer to "intellectual," though not quite that, either, as great writing must engage the reader both intellectually and emotionally. An emotion I tend to feel, for instance, when I read something great, is something like envy. That feeling comes about after I've been challenged in both an intellectual way and, really, almost in a physical way, what I myself strive for in my work (you could say I've written extensively on the intrinsic relation between emotion and intellect).

    "Cooler" writing, which I take to mean writing that appears effortless, is laying its cards on the engagingness of its content. Without exceptionally engaging content, "cooler" writing is often considered "dry" instead.

  • Frankie Saxx
    Jul 22, 10:05pm

    When people talk about "emotional" writing do they mean writing explicitly intended to manipulate the reader's emotions? Or writing that people feel stuff about? Or writing with characters that have emotions? Work produced by histrionic writers?

    I do not know.

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    Lynn Beighley
    Jul 23, 12:57am

    David, to answer your question, I understood what was going on.

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    Lynn Beighley
    Jul 23, 12:58am

    And I agree that you could cut out much of the first (and last) scene. Much more powerful that way.

  • David John King
    Jul 23, 03:03am

    Thanks Lynn (and again to you Frank)

    I much appreciate your responses. Without feedback, we can't know how we're coming across to others. I might like something - a certain tone of voice etc - but a large percentage of others might not. That's a risk we take, I guess, in being writers or putting our work out where others can see it.

    I certainly take note that two people have now said that the bookends to the story give too much away and reduce the story's essential power. Thankyou! That's the sort of constructive thing we all need to know about our work.

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    Sally Houtman
    Jul 23, 06:23am

    "not your type of thing"

    For the record, I have no particular "type of thing."

    I *do*, however, have a particular appreciation for work that lifts off the page and comes to life, work that extends beyond individual words on a page.

    If this is considered 'emotional' or 'gushy' then so be it.

    I will proudly emote and gush.

    :)

  • David John King
    Jul 23, 09:36am

    That's what I meant by 'not your kind of thing'.

  • David John King
    Aug 04, 11:51pm

    If anyone else wishes to comment on The Deal, please do so soon as I will be deleting the story from Fictonaut on Friday 9 August (AEST).
    I only leave my stories online for one month.

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    David Ackley
    Aug 05, 01:52pm

    Your posting is titled, 'Needs Advice.' Here's one piece: it's not great form to use the forum to solicit reads for your work. It happens, is tolerated but it's a bit overdoing it to do it again in the same posting.

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    mxi wodd
    Aug 06, 12:02am

    Oh, come now, old chap--

    This isn't the Oxford Club.

    ;-)

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    mxi wodd
    Aug 06, 12:09am

    (I have full faith and confidence we shall survive this onslaught of brutality)

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    David Ackley
    Aug 06, 02:24pm

    Ah, the shapeshifter, in an uncharacteristic bid for sweetness and light.

  • David John King
    Aug 07, 08:14am

    David...not sure whose rules I have violated here. I read in the Fictionaut Primer, that if you want comments, ask for them. So I certainly haven't broken any rules set by the founders of Fictionaut.
    Jorge, I'm not sure from your comment if I am meant to be the perpetrator of the 'onslaught of brutality' or the victim. But rest assured, survival will not be an issue.
    By the way, you guys could simply have said whatever you thought of the story. How does anyone know unless someone tells them? Cheers!

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    David Ackley
    Aug 07, 06:18pm

    David--You broke nobody's rules, since we have essentially none.

    However, posting a story on Fictionaut amounts to be a request for comment and asking again on the forum ( and again )seems superfluous and unnecessary. Opinions differ as to what the Forum is for, but mine is that it sometimes can get overwhelmed by the self-advertising.Suppose everyone who posted a story additionally posted on the forum asking for it to be read and commented on.

    On the other hand, who could object to people notifying their fellow fictionauters here of good news in the way of publication or honors.(IMO)

    You did ask for comments.

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    mxi wodd
    Aug 07, 10:16pm

    "it sometimes can get overwhelmed by the self-advertising."

    From what I've seen, that's (thankfully) died down to the point of non-existence after the first few giddy years of internet "I ARE SOMEONES-ness."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I GOT PURBLISHED!!!
    (thank ya Lorg, thank ya Jeebus!)!!!!!!!!!!!!

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I ARE INNERVWOOD!!! (by my inert frenz for da 18th time! I ARE some buzz!) !!!!!!!!!!

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I GOTS ME A PUSHFART NOMINATION (from me innernet frenz' magazine no less!!) !!!!!!!!!!!

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I think it's all calmed down.

    Freshman year is over and people are settling in for the long-haul.

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    David Ackley
    Aug 08, 12:45am

    Noticed that too, after I checked. Yr right.

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    Charlotte Hamrick
    Aug 08, 01:19am

    Have mercy. This thread needs to end. Ignore if one finds it objectionable., Comment and help a guy out, if not. Simple.

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    Charlotte Hamrick
    Aug 08, 01:51am

    Never mind

  • David John King
    Aug 09, 01:56pm

    And I honestly believed this was supposed to be a site comprised of intelligent people. Oh, well, one lives and learns.

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    mxi wodd
    Aug 11, 05:11am

    "Freshman year is over and people are settling in for the long-haul."

    (except for dillweeds like the above...)

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    Matthew Robinson
    Aug 12, 07:43am

    Right, because if someone doesn't like your work, there's no way they're intelligent, is there? You sound like a lot of fun to be around. Good luck.

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    Sally Houtman
    Aug 12, 08:53am

    Okay, everybody.

    Hold hands.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo9AH4vG2wA

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    Sally Houtman
    Aug 12, 08:59am

    Did you feel the love?

    I feel the love.

  • David John King
    Aug 12, 12:58pm

    Hey, Matt

    That was a strange comment because my last reply referred to those comments which had nothing at all to do with the story.
    I mean, I thought this was a site where writers discussed each others' work in a calm, dispassionate (yes, let's even say, 'intellectual') fashion, sharing thoughts on how something might be improved, or why it worked or didn't work for them or whatever might come to mind. Nothing abusive, nothing emotional. Actually, all I needed to know was whether not it was understandable outside of the Australian welfare situation. A couple of people said it was, which was fine...and then, for some reason, the post snowballed into weird comments. It wasn't what I sought or intended.
    I don't know about people 'not liking my work' because nobody said anything except two people. But I was always open to genuine, helpful comments. Is that a crime?

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    Carol Reid
    Aug 12, 03:34pm

    David, if you haven't already, try the zoetrope story studio site. It's not very active these days but longer short stories are common there and it's more of a workshop than Fictionaut.

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    Matthew Robinson
    Aug 12, 04:59pm

    It's common for threads to wander, here, David. You should know as well anyone: writers can be quirky folk. It wasn't necessary of you to insult the entire community based on the actions of a few.

  • David John King
    Aug 12, 11:59pm

    Thanks, Carol - I'd never even heard of the Zoetrope story studio. Will see what it's doing these days.

    And, Matt, I suppose you're right. The actions (or should we say, words) of a couple of 'quirky folk' shouldn't be seen as a reflection of everyone else.

    By the way, Matt, your comments before on 'cooler' writing were appropriate and, I think, quite right, so I certainly wouldn't include you in any 'insults'.

    Thanks also Frank Sachs for his illuminating and helpful comments and to Carol for making a timely and appropriate suggestion.

    That's the sort of thing you hope for when you join something like Fictionaut.

    What I got out of this was the idea that if the subject isn't of real interest to a reader, an effortless writing style isn't going to hold them. So obviously, the subject matter wasn't of real interest to many people on Fictionaut - which is what I needed to know along with whether or not it was understandable from foreign perspectives.

    It's interesting, however, that several people (including a couple of writers) who've been on welfare in Australia for long periods found it very disturbing, even frightening. So obviously, it's a question of how involved one is (or can be) with the subject. People who depend on Government handouts for survival seem to see it very differently from people who don't.

    Thanks to those of you who made the comments which helped me to see this.

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    Sally Houtman
    Aug 13, 12:33am

    You're welcome.

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    mxi wodd
    Aug 13, 01:04am

    David--

    Odds are you're a really good guy (as everyone essentially is...at some level).

    Just an honest guy looking for honest feedback in an honest attempt to honestly improve his art.

    So, welcome (and chill with all the weirdness and demands and insults before anyone even "knows" you...)

    Posting here, whether receiving feedback to your liking or not, historically has helped many writers.

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    mxi wodd
    Aug 13, 01:10am

    "chill with all the weirdness and demands and insults before anyone even "knows" you..."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    (there'll be plenty of time for that later...)

    ;-)

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    Letitia Coyne
    Aug 13, 01:32am

    I am an Australian writer who has proudly lived on Govt subsidies for many many many years.

    I see it as state support for the arts. They pay me to bring light and joy to the world.

    And I do. Yep.

    Lxx

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