Forum / Who do I need to screw around here?

• 
  Gone

  Apr 05, 02:15pm

  Does anybody have any tips on getting Fictionaut subscribers to take a look at my work?

  I regularly get plenty of non-subscribers to read but I'm looking to benefit from the comments.

  My current yarn is here: http://fictionaut.com/stories/dom-conlon/dear-god-know-me-from-adam

  Thank you

  Dom

• Frankie Saxx

  Apr 05, 02:28pm

  1. If you're posting longer pieces, keep in mind a lot of people give them a miss. (Sad but true.)

  2. Are you reading & commenting on other work? It's just human nature, when your name gets familiar to people, they're more likely to click on your stuff. Some because they like to return comments, others because they checked it out from curiosity and discover they like your stuff.

  (This is pretty much the same for anywhere on the internet, btw.)

• 
  Gone

  Apr 05, 02:30pm

  Hi Frankie,

  Yes. I read a lot and try to comment or fav. Maybe I just need to step that up a bit though.

  Cheers.

• Frankie Saxx

  Apr 05, 02:34pm

  Oh yeah, 3000 words is also a longer story for Fictionaut. If you catch someone when they have time & they're in the mood for a longer read, you'll get reads/comments, but less than short (under 1K) pieces.

  There is a group for longer stories

  http://fictionaut.com/groups/the-longer-story

  I don't know how active it still is, though.

• 
  Charlotte Hamrick

  Apr 05, 02:37pm

  I find the number of writers here a bit mind boggling, Dom. It's hard to choose who to read with the limited time I have to be online! I will definitely check out your work. Another way to connect with people here is to participate in the forums.

  Good luck!

• 
  Susan Gibb

  Apr 05, 02:40pm

  Too true; the longer stories, with the amount of work passing through here daily, won't get the reads the short piece do.

• Frankie Saxx

  Apr 05, 02:44pm

  These days I'm usually reading people whose work I know I like or low reads/no comments/favorites because often that's new people (or longer stories). (Or new people with longer stories!)

  I am much less likely to read someone again if I read a longer story and didn't care for it, rather than a flash or a poem. (Not a hint or anything Dom; I am talking in general here.)

• 
  Gone

  Apr 05, 02:48pm

  Makes perfect sense, Frankie. I don't tend to post long pieces here but I wanted to share it and it had nowhere else to go.

  Appreciate all the comments.

• Frankie Saxx

  Apr 05, 02:59pm

  I just realized, I'm standing here stirring ice cream batter and I could a) keep discussing in the forum or b) go read your story.

  So I read your story.

  It's hilarious.

• 
  Gloria Garfunkel

  Apr 05, 04:10pm

  I had a series of unread 3000 word stories and I chopped them up into smaller linked-flashes and that got them read. Otherwise they were ignored. I also started a linked-flashes group for those stories to be found in one place.

• 
  Gloria Garfunkel

  Apr 05, 04:13pm

  It's called Flash Sequences. http://fictionaut.com/groups/flash-sequences

  Then I reassembled them back into a whole and made the stories themselves private because there were so many.

• 
  Gloria Garfunkel

  Apr 05, 04:15pm

  Birds of Prayer was 8 flash pieces.

• 
  Gone

  Apr 05, 04:22pm

  Thanks Gloria, that's a great idea. It's not the lack of readers so much. I know I can top the most read section through my Twitter screaming. And I get nice feedback from those folks.

  It's more how to get Fictionaut people interested because they have the power to add more feedback which I know would benefit my growth.

• 
  Gloria Garfunkel

  Apr 05, 05:30pm

  I ended up having three flashes published out of Birds of Prayer. Never would have happened if I hadn't divided it up. You can see the divisions in the Group version.

• 
  David Ackley

  Apr 08, 11:24pm

  Since Dom posted his story ( and his request for comments) it has risen to the top of the "Recommended," list on the strength largely of some 6,000+ "views," against 2 "faves," and a small number of comments. Clearly, the answer to his question( " Who do I have to screw...?") is nobody--after this, who needs comments? I have to admit I've never seen this before on Fictionaut, where a story rises to the top almost exclusively on the strength of an enormous number of--for the most part non-fictionaut--views. You are enviably good at getting people to look at your stuff, and no doubt have something to teach the rest of us in that regard.But I have to admit there's an element that looks like "gaming the system," here, at least insofar as the "Recommended," list is concerned--which, until now, seemed more about the preferences of Fictionaut members as expressed in ( the much maligned) faves.

• 
  Susan Gibb

  Apr 08, 11:31pm

  I'd rather the five comments and normally feel a little embarrassed by the number of views versus any who actually read and left a comment, wondering why so many viewed, maybe read the first couple of lines, and left quietly without a whisper.

• 
  Gone

  Apr 08, 11:49pm

  It struck a chord with the right person. I want people to read my work. I'm not ashamed of that. I also value feedback. I've had lots via email and Twitter. I have nothing to teach anyone and only want to become a better writer and not have to be accused of anything.

• 
  David Ackley

  Apr 09, 01:08am

  I'm sorry, the implied accusation wasn't meant. If you benefited from the wierd Fictionaut algorythm, good for you. But I do think the formula might need to be revisited in light of what happened.

• 
  Gary Hardaway

  Apr 09, 02:19am

  What crap.

• 
  James Claffey

  Apr 09, 02:30am

  true blue...

• 
  Sally Houtman

  Apr 09, 02:41am

  I'm throwing a party.

  Inviting 6429 of my closest friends.

  Just waiting for my 'invite bucket' to fill.

• 
  Gary Hardaway

  Apr 09, 03:25am

  Gosh, Dom, you've learned how to get the hits but not how to write.

• 
  Susan Gibb

  Apr 09, 03:34am

  Tread carefully, friends. I have been accused of being "cruel, unkind, and insulting" by a member who does not seem to understand what's going on here and who I tried to make suggestions to in a private message--which I soon found was linked to in full via twitter by this member.

• 
  Matthew Robinson

  Apr 09, 04:31am

  Guys, I'm not sure about all of this. I've said it before (though I'm not the first) and I'll say it again (hopefully for the last time): views, comments, favorites are not the proper means to an end here. It's about sharing creative, interesting, literary, philosophical work with which we hope to better the world, extend or challenge our understanding of it. Clearly something strange is afoot here, but we should all be above name-calling and nose-thumbing. Sure, perhaps I participated with my Amy Hempel remark, but I've had some time to reflect. Let's not put the subjective, arbitrary nature of popularity on the pedestal here; let Dom have his fun and let's get back to being respectful to one another. Ultimately, the reaction here is childish on all accounts. Everyone please get back to creating wonderful work, please.

• 
  Carson Baker

  Apr 09, 06:02am

  There are lots of issues to discuss in this thread, and I'm open-minded to all sorts of argument, but I would like to set the facts straight about Don's story.

  The referring link to his story is posted at
  <http://www.rockpapershotgun.com//2013/04/07/the-sunday-papers-258/>.

  Rock, Paper, Shotgun is a popular PC gaming website and is no doubt responsible for the traffic to his story. There was no trickery involved on Don's end or my own.

  So kudos to Don for grabbing attention.

  * * *

  Now, we can talk about evolving the rating system if you want, but this gets hairy.

  The first thing to mention is that Fictionaut's traffic is sort of weird when compared to other sites. Because we cater to repeat visitors (composed largely of Fictionaut members), we have a very consistent pattern of use, to the point where I can predict with incredible confidence and precision how many people will be visiting the home page on a given day.

  A happy implication of this pattern is that the rating system (which -- I agree -- should be a barometer for story quality) is left unperturbed by the usual fluctuations in traffic as those are normalized through prediction.

  Sometimes however, sites like Rock Paper Shotgun present a black swan. This isn't the first time it's happened, and there will be more events like it to come.

  However, I hesitate strongly towards removing traffic ("views" in our nomenclature) from the secret sauce of story ratings for two main reasons.

  The first reason is that if we remove the view count from the independent variables, I worry that we'll have a rating system controlled by a plutocracy of well-connected fav-ers. Many of you would argue we're already there.

  The second point to make is that Fictionaut should be a platform for exposing writing and interacting with readers. By ignoring third-party effects on the site, we stifle ourselves.

  The reality is that attention-seeking is a necessary part of community building, and Fictionaut should reward those who bring traffic to the site. After all, this is the internet.

  There are certainly arguments to made about "karma-whoring", a phenomenon that many other communities wrestle with, but that's where the issue gets really thorny. There's just no perfect solution to filtering signal from noise.

  I'll be refining the recommendation algorithm as a response to Don's story, and I'm open to suggestions on how to improve the site -- either along these lines or more generally.

• 
  Gloria Garfunkel

  Apr 09, 07:50am

  I'm just really disappointed that I suggested a legitimate way to get a 3000 word story read and Dom was all grateful and then invites 6000 of his closest gamer friends with the attention span of grasshoppers to read his story, so to speak. What's that about?

• 
  Matthew Robinson

  Apr 09, 08:04am

  I think this just about sums up the attitude of this thread.

  http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv00bj0qFL1r62eklo1_500.gif

  Congratulations!

• 
  Gone

  Apr 09, 08:18am

  Gloria - I didn't invite 6000 of my closest gamer friends. I did what I always do. I tweeted it maybe half a dozen times. Some people retweeted me and one of those happens to run a games site. He doesn't follow me on Twitter. He doesn't know me. I wouldn't like to judge his readers or their attention spans. But your advice was very welcome.

  I too am really disappointed. Mostly in the assumptions and bullying that is going on here. From people who are teachers and writers. It's incredibly demoralising.

• 
  Gloria Garfunkel

  Apr 09, 08:40am

  Well that's a response that suggests it was an accident and even kind of funny and you shouldn't be judged on a hole in the system. If you are serious about writing, stay, don't tweet that person and just keep writing shorter or linked pieces. Put it behind you. Things blow over here really fast and I assure you in a month it will be forgotten. The numbers were kind of funny in revealing a hole in the system. Don't leave. Stick it out, please. It would do us all more good including you and Carson.

• 
  Gloria Garfunkel

  Apr 09, 08:41am

  Disasters like this can only improve the system. Carson is a genius.

• 
  Gloria Garfunkel

  Apr 09, 08:46am

  Disasters like this can only improve the system. Carson is a genius. Ignore the bullying. It comes and it goes and then lots of good things happen too.

• Frankie Saxx

  Apr 09, 09:27am

  *shrug* I don't think Dom did anything wrong. If 6,000 people are willing to click a link for him, good for him.

  And I liked his story.

  What. the fuck. ever.

  (Also Carson, I understand everything you said. And if a story here gets 6K views from outside, I think it deserves to be on the recommendations.)

• 
  Jane Flett

  Apr 09, 09:33am

  Oh my god. What the fuck is wrong with people?

  Don came here and said,

  "I regularly get plenty of non-subscribers to read but I'm looking to benefit from the comments"

  and

  "It's not the lack of readers so much. I know I can top the most read section through my Twitter screaming.

  It's more how to get Fictionaut people interested because they have the power to add more feedback which I know would benefit my growth."

  Seriously, why are you all so mean?

• Frankie Saxx

  Apr 09, 09:35am

  So...

  A new member comes, posts a story, engages with the community, and brings 6K views to his story (and by extension, possibly tens, or even hundreds, of readers that will stay to click some other stories too)

  Do we

  a) welcome him?

  b) get out the pitchforks and stark screaming about the recommended list and favorites again?

  (There is a wrong answer here, folks. *headdesk*)

• 
  Jane Flett

  Apr 09, 09:38am

  Cross-posted with Frankie, I agree with this: "And if a story here gets 6K views from outside, I think it deserves to be on the recommendations."

  It is kind of hilarious that the assumption going round is that Don wanted 6000 people to read his story simply so that he could rise on the Fictionaut Recommended board. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I really, really do not think that was at the top of his mind.

• Frankie Saxx

  Apr 09, 09:40am

  Jane, exactly. Clearly Dom does not need to be here to get read, if that's all he wants.

• 
  Jim V

  Apr 09, 09:51am

  As the person whose poem got bumped from the top line of the rankings by that story, the first time I've ever been on the top line, I find I couldn't give a crap less about it. You know why? Because it doesn't matter. At all. I have far bigger mountains to climb than two-weeks-until-obscurity Fictionaut popularity.

  As for people telling others they cannot write: I think you ought to be pretty successful yourself before you venture into those kinds of waters.

  Don't change the algorithm, Carson. There's nothing wrong with Fictionaut. There's something instead wrong with people-- and that's not going to change any eon soon.

• 
  Jane Flett

  Apr 09, 09:53am

  Yep. And double congratulations all, now the first thing thousands of new visitors to the site will see is comments like:

  Well, I guess getting 6321 views is one way of placing work in this column.

  and

  Wow. And to get 5 people out of 6,000 to actually read and comment, that's good too. You're playing games. Nobody appreciates them.

  and

  What crap.

  and

  Bunch of crap indeed.

  and

  Dom, you've learned how to game the system but not how to write.

  I am sure all these people will be real excited to stay and discover the friendly, wonderful community we've got going.

• Frankie Saxx

  Apr 09, 09:59am

  Absolutely agree, Jane.

  Fortunately there's a beautiful comment by Sam, too. (Sam always leaves beautiful comments. :)

• Frankie Saxx

  Apr 09, 10:05am

  Agree with James, too.

• Frankie Saxx

  Apr 09, 11:35am

  I reread this thread. And the comments on Dom's story.

  The thing that makes this so appallingly ugly is that this isn't even something Dom did. He mentioned his story on Twitter and *someone else* with a popular blog thought it was funny (it is) and linked to it.

  So because someone else liked his story enough to share it, Dom deserves, what... nasty, spiteful comments on his story and catty digs about his writing?

  What the fuck is wrong with people?

  I am mortified.

• 
  Marcus Speh

  Apr 09, 11:52am

  Thank you, Carson, for clearing this up and for sharing your thoughts on this. I like a good argument that brings reason, technology, experience and passion together and you made it. I'm for leaving the system as it is.

  Obviously there's no need for me to butt in but I suppose that I cannot stop myself means that I,too, care about this community. I've been here for a while and I'm always excited when something new happens (besides the stories: there're always interesting news stories) on the community side.

  It's time for a paradoxical intervention! Click your heels if you agree!

  For me, after encouraging Dom elsewhere to keep at it and forget about the noise, this forum thread is an opportunity to discuss some things that have been on my mind since I became aware of this debate.

  I regret that very few of us contribute to the blog (other than by being featured or interviewed). Instead, the forum is used as if it was a blog with the only, and grave, difference that no outsiders can comment. I think if only the fraction of the smart, interesting, passionate posts in the forum were published as blog posts, there would be no end to "outside" comments and discussions with people "outside" the community. I'm putting the word outside in quotes because once you're on the net, the difference between inside and outside quickly becomes as irrelevant as the fact that Fictionaut, five years after its inception, is still dangling the promise of open access before its onlookers. Something that I have come to accept not because I'm on the "inside" but because it has never, as far as I know, been difficult for any writer to get that if they really wanted to.

  Many people here don't seem to understand the Internet. There's no shame in that, it's a freak jungle, it's bigger than anything, too big to get your hands your head or your ass around it. It's more than a medium it's a different space with completely different laws. It's both scary and scintillating, humbling and haunting, inspiring and insipid.

  One of the laws that the Internet does not respect is the law of the private lawn (meaning you can't both be on and off the net). If you want a private lawn you create a private community, which can be a wonderful thing! If you embrace the Internet, you're open on all sides and you have to bury your ideas about content distribution, publication, reading, and perhaps even writing to some extent (I expect this latter point will become clearer as we move along, right now I'm confused about this myself, and I have been for a few years now).

  I'm one of the original developers of the World-Wide Web (often wrongly identified with the Internet) so that I feel a tad of misguided responsibility to have helped (with a bunch of others, of course) unleash this behemoth on you unsuspecting folks. But there's beauty, too, to match the beast. We (physicists) built the Web to share stuff and so that intellectual capital could flow more freely. Well guess what: it does, and a lot of other things, too: emotions, money, marketing…but I won't open another can of worms, not to worry.

  I don't see any point in using the comments (next to the story) to leave a message for a writer other than (A) point stuff out if s/he asked for it (even then I'd rather write a private message because the comments are not suited as a writing tutorial), or (B) encourage the writer by saying how, what, why you liked the work. To wag one's finger at artefacts of the publication on the net seems unnecessary. Favs, views etc are artefacts: they're made by man not by the muse. If in doubt, ask yourself if your muse would like you to make that comment. That's what I do. She made me write this and now I'm waiting for the clicks.

  Frankie! Nothing is wrong with people. Nothing new anyway. People are jealous and they are ignorant. They are full of hopes and wishes in a world that seems to possess and hold answers to all those hopes and wishes for everyone. But somehow they don't all materialize for all people. Only for some. Not everyone gets to be James Bond. And those who have been around for a little longer know that not even James Bond gets to be James Bond. Literature: a minefield. A battleground of dashed hopes and desires. Fictionaut: a refuge, a doll's hospital, at least most of the time, and in other times, just as bloody-minded as the rest of the net. Fortunately not most of the time and the many good pieces of work here help me to reconcile the paradoxes of the place, the Egos and the Angels, the crap and the cream.

  I am alone in a large room in Germany, I'm looking at the screen and I'm waiting for your clicks. I'm alone with the screen if I don't count you on the other side of the screen.

  Wait, don't go! Did you just look at my stuff? Don't go! Don't go!

  Go back to work, as Matt said.

• 
  Susan Gibb

  Apr 09, 12:05pm

  I apologize for misunderstanding and as has become obvious, false accusation of playing with numbers.

• 
  Gloria Garfunkel

  Apr 09, 12:41pm

  I told you these things blow over fast here.

• 
  Lynn Beighley

  Apr 09, 12:43pm

  Sigh.

  Welcome, Dom. Please stay.

  (I smiled when I saw his story at the top because it was an interesting quirk, and who the hell cares?)

• 
  Gloria Garfunkel

  Apr 09, 12:44pm

  And I apologize for calling the 6000 having attention spans of grasshoppers. I have two gamer sons who can play for hours. It's been an issue in my house for years. Projection.

• 
  Gloria Garfunkel

  Apr 09, 12:46pm

  I agree with Lynn. Please stay. I've been in unpleasant frays myself and I'm still glad to be here.

• 
  David Ackley

  Apr 09, 02:31pm

  I wanted to call attention to something that happened that probably shouldn't have. For this those of us who spoke about it were characterized as this and that--mean, bullies, unqualified, etc. But that's okay, because I value honesty a lot more than I worry about my or somebody else's tender feelings. Honesty always carries the risk that you might be wrong. Which, in my view, is much preferable to the prior censorship that some of the posts here would seem to prefer.

• 
  Jim V

  Apr 09, 02:44pm

  All cruel people describe themselves as paragons of frankness.
  
  Tennessee Williams

• Frankie Saxx

  Apr 09, 03:03pm

  David: I have no objection to people discussing whether or not there's a problem with how the ranking & recommendations how that handles a massive influx of outside readers.

  My objection, specifically is to comments insulting a member's writing and accusing them of "cheating" because of the number of views a story gets.

  What happened to Dom could have happened to any one of us. (I say it like that's a bad thing; we should all be so lucky!)

• 
  David Ackley

  Apr 09, 03:09pm

  What's morning without a good little
  fictionaut dustup to stir the blood and get the fingers moving? Almost as good as kicking the dog, James.

• 
  Jim V

  Apr 09, 03:11pm

  Nobody ever called for censorship, only civility.

  For the record, David, while I don't think Dom ever "gamed the system," I never found anything you said rude. Why you lumped yourself in with the couple who were I don't know.

  Anyway, my main issue was with dismissing the person as a writer, which you did not do. I feel if you're going to do that, then you damn well ought to be more qualified than a few acceptances in online journals. Because calling someone a poor writer is no small thing. It's soul crushing. If you're going to pull out that kind of firepower, you better make sure you're the biggest mother in the room.

• 
  Marcus Speh

  Apr 09, 03:38pm

  Could easily have happened to me: I like to boost my reader numbers with some well-placed Facebook-Google+ and Twitter-campaigns. Frankly, I want readers as much as comments. The warm bath of friendship is nice but the cool breeze of fame is nothing to sneeze at.

  Btw, finally READ Dom's story: I laughed very hard and often. It's been a while. Harsh winter, flus, tax problems. Thank you, Dom. Good writing.

  Achoo!

• 
  David Ackley

  Apr 09, 03:40pm

  Since, I've been ( momentarily, it might be) exonerated of the charge of cruelty, I hope it won't appear recidivist, if I point out the amusing irony that so far has gone unnoticed; that accusing ( unfairly, but still) Dom of "gaming the system," issued from some thousands of views by "gamers," alerted on a " gaming" site. The mind boggles.

• 
  Marcus Speh

  Apr 09, 03:50pm

  @David is the playing (!) field thereby opened for trifles and other comments for which I'm an expert (never hurting, sometimes entertaining, usually distracting)?

• 
  Charlotte Hamrick

  Apr 09, 05:18pm

  Wow, get a migraine for a couple of days and look at the drama I missed. ;)

  We're all human and we all, at one time or another, have made remarks that were less than kind with less than perfect information or maybe just because we were in a bad mood at the time. Look at it as a learning experience, apologize if you must and move on.

  Dom, I read your piece and chuckled throughout. I thought it was very clever and creative and I hope you stay with the group here.

• Frankie Saxx

  Apr 09, 09:08pm

  And that, people, is how you get comments on a story longer than 800 words.

• 
  Gone

  Apr 10, 01:33am

  The fight's over and I would hate to see it start up again, but as I read down the thread, I was reminded of this:

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8m9vDRe8fw

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