Forum / Just wondering...

Sally Houtman
Aug 20, 11:05pm

...if anybody knows why there are so many folks here who post work on a regular basis, yet never (or rarely ever) comment on anyone else's work.

This isn't a new phenomenon, been like this the past 2+ years I've been here. I just find it odd.

And it can't be a time thing (which makes it even odder), because...if someone has time to log in, post a piece, and return to write on someone's wall or post multiple thank-yous in their own comment box (that the commenter will likely never see)...then SURELY they've got a few minutes to give someone some love.

Imagine how vibrant and alive this place could be if everyone who posted took an interest in the 'community.'

So what's the deal?

Inquiring minds...

Sally Houtman
Aug 20, 11:13pm

Case and point -

Of the 17 pieces currently on the main page...

9 are by people whose names rarely (if at all) appear in anyone's comment box.

???

Sally Houtman
Aug 20, 11:17pm

And don't get me wrong, I'm not being judgmental. Quite the contrary.

I *want* these folks to participate.

Would just like to know why they don't.

Chris Okum
Aug 20, 11:33pm

Some people have nothing to say. I feel that way a lot myself.

Charlotte Hamrick
Aug 20, 11:44pm

I've wondered the same thing.
That's why I like favs. I often enjoy a piece but don't necessarily feel the need to comment. But I do want the writer to know I read and enjoyed their work.

J.A. Pak
Aug 21, 12:26am

And people have different reasons for posting here.
And writers can be rather shy.
And posting is participating.
And many other reasons I'm totally clueless about.
Oh! And they might have had a bad experience. Like my comments on certain writers' pages have been consistently ignored.

Hope that helps a bit, Serious.

whatwouldbukowskido
Aug 21, 12:33am

@Stu-

In case you missed it (from a previous thread), there are many dishonorable, undignified, posters here whose work is "(not) touched by the hand of a supreme creator."

Perhaps that is why they are shy about reading/commenting on others' work...

(while incessantly posting self-referential forum threads...)

?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re the others who post but do not comment...

People, what can you do...

;-)

Carol Reid
Aug 21, 01:08am

I'm an habitual and unrepentant frequent commenter now but when I first joined Fnaut and had few connections here I was quite intimidated about offering feedback. I was afraid of sounding like a dork. I got over it, but it took a long time and a major attitude shift. Could be true of other non-commenters now. Might be similar to the situation of an actor without a role being inarticulate and tongue-tied. When we post work, we are "writers". When we comment we're just us, and that can be difficult.

Sally Houtman
Aug 21, 01:27am

As a self-identified dishonorable and undignified commenter, I greatly appreciate habitual and unrepentant commenters.

:)

But...

many, many of the non-commenters have been around for a very long time.

And how shy do you have to be to either click the 'fave' button or just type "Enjoyed" in the comment box...

And how do you *develop* connections if you don't interact.

Still scratching head.

Matthew Robinson
Aug 21, 02:34am

Sounds like people need to read the initial post of this thread by Joani Reese (that is permanently pinned to the top of the forum!):

http://fictionaut.com/forums/general/threads/1904

!

Sally Houtman
Aug 21, 02:59am

Well. They may be too shy to click on the link.

:)

Sam Rasnake
Aug 21, 04:08am

Some may not comment on works because few writers comment on theirs. Maybe they follow by example. For some, I think Chris is right. Some read/fav without the need to comment.

Barry Basden
Aug 21, 12:36pm

I don't know how many editor/writers (or vice versa) are here but I am one. I have commented on pieces I enjoyed personally and then found myself rejecting those same pieces at CPR because they weren't quite right for what CPR is.

That dynamic has created hurt feelings and more conflicts than I thought possible.

So I am now, sadly, very careful about the flashes <500 words I comment on. I've been around here long enough and seen enough flame wars and good writers leaving or getting kicked out to last me. I certainly don't want to initiate any of that with anything I do here.

JMO

Sam Rasnake
Aug 21, 01:13pm

Great point, Barry.

David Ackley
Aug 21, 01:32pm

The notion of reciprocity is inescapable here. For the site to function, it needs both writers and readers, and you have to be able to go back and forth. If feedback is what you most value as a writer, you can fairly assume that others feel the same, and would welcome anything you have to say. What's so hard about writing a few words of praise for a piece you liked?(Taking note of the exception, Barry poses.)Further, there is benefit in commenting to the commenter, since it requires you to at least make a stab at articulating what you value in work which can then be applied to your own writing.

I don't think this poses the obligation to comment on everything you read. If commenting is serious, it can't be purely reciprocal which would risk making worthless comments you receive in return.

whatwouldbukowskido
Aug 21, 09:40pm

I like to seek out posters who rarely post and essssssssssssssssssssentiaaaaaaaaaally (computer/keyboard's gone wonky...new computer only hours away from delivery) neeever comment. These are some good ones:

http://fictionaut.com/stories/tyler-koch/lips-of-an-angel

http://fictionaut.com/stories/cd-reimer/ten-tequila-shots

http://fictionaut.com/stories/tyler-koch/friends

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've never ssssseen them comment on anothhhers's work.

And it ddddddoes appear rude/thhhhoutlessssss.

But they post rarely (while I wish they would post more often).

As for the "Regulars" who post their work on a regular basis but rraaaaarely (if ever) comment.

That IS just rude (in my dishonorable, undignified, untouched by the hand of a supreme creator, opinion)

Sally Houtman
Aug 22, 12:18am

Barry - Good point, and one I'd never have thought about. Though I believe this kind of situation is rare.

"What's so hard about writing a few words of praise for a piece you liked?"

That's what I'm sayin'.

Re 'see ya's' links - I betcha those are some interrrresting people. Wouldn't you like to interact with them?

Wouldn't you like to know why they aren't interested in interacting with us?

I just don't see the point of becoming a part of a community, then not taking advantage of the 'community'.

But that's just my dishonorable and undignified opinion.

Letitia Coyne
Aug 22, 12:19am

The rate of votes from reads here is actually a little higher than the general internet population response rate.

At Wattpad, for instance, titles usually get around 3% of the readers who fav, and 1% who comment.

A popular book, Rob Thier's "The Robber Knight's Love" stats are:
1,348,710 reads 46,126 votes 8,384 comments

Mine are:
B. 43,523 reads 1,586 votes 564 comments
H: 29,361 reads 1,443 votes 858 comments

Generally, forums on reader responses claim about 1%. The more active the 'community' around any piece or pieces, the higher the response rate, but it never moves much past 4-5%, even with rate/review of items for sale at major online shopping sites.

Flamings in the past have had a noticeable effect on willingness to stick a head above the parapet here. Also, a number of active commenters left the site.

Lxx

Sally Houtman
Aug 22, 12:46am

"I just don't see the point of becoming a part of a community, then not taking advantage of the 'community'."

Unless, of course, your whole purpose is to promote *self*.

Which is how it ends up appearing.

Carol Reid
Aug 22, 12:58am

But you know, I've read many really good stories here, without cost or obligation, written by people who are here to be read, not to interact in any other way.

Why encourage anyone to interact if that is clearly not part of their purpose here?

There are hermits and loners at the periphery of every community. It's okay with me if that's the case here.

Sally Houtman
Aug 22, 02:50am

"people who are here to be read, not to interact in any other way."

Precisely. That's the point of view I'm trying to understand.

Dat's all.

Letitia Coyne
Aug 22, 03:43am

I don't think it is a hard pov to understand.

Everybody who posts here is posting to be read. Every single one. It is the only point of similarity for every single member.

After that, deeper interaction with the community, for a hundred reasons, is more limited, just as it is in every other community, especially online groups.

100% want to be read, 3-5% want to vote, fav, or like, to show their thanks or solidarity of some kind, and 1% want to comment.

Those comments/critiques/suggestions are valuable when they come from someone who knows what they are talking about. If comments come from blissful ignorance and amount to only, 'I like that' they are nice and welcomed, but of no more practical use than a vote, fav, or like.

I think.

Lxx

Sally Houtman
Aug 22, 04:01am

Okey dokey.

Letitia Coyne
Aug 22, 04:20am

It also just dawned on me that the people who can actually answer to why they choose to submit without ever commenting are unlikely to comment in answer to your question.

The rest of us can speculate.

Lxx

Charlotte Hamrick
Aug 22, 04:31am

Well, it's interesting and educational to hear other peoples pov. I'm here to read, be read and to interact. Frankly, if I comment or fav your piece (and it'll be more than once) and you never interact with me, I'll probably not read your work here again. This may be a clue as to why we see the same people interacting with the same people. I do make an effort every time I come here to read those I'm not familiar with but, like I said.......

Carol, as always, seems to have the most balanced approach on the subject. I'll go with that.

Sally Houtman
Aug 22, 06:15am

"if I comment or fav your piece (and it'll be more than once) and you never interact with me, I'll probably not read your work here again."

I believe that holds true for more people than are willing to admit.

David Ackley
Aug 22, 01:12pm

"Everybody who posts here is posting to be read." Inarguable. But, and I'm not claiming any credit for this because it's what I like to do, I also like reading other people's pieces and enjoy praising, as accurately as I can, where praise is due. Recognizing other people's good writing, just as I'd hope mine would be when it deserves it. (And having the crap politely ignored.) I confess, I've never understood, here or in the non-virtual world where I taught, people who want to write but will admit they don't read and don't like to read very much. I suspect the group here who write but don't comment may be, in part, a subset of that larger lot of non-reading writers. Perhaps it's pity that's called for.

Rachna K.
Aug 22, 01:54pm

I just came across this thread and i have been thinking about the same thing. I haven't been here long and I did not know anyone when I joined F'naut and I realized the only way to become a part of this community and to take advantage of this place is to know other writers, to read their work, comment about what I liked in their writing and so on. And that was also a way to introduce them to my writing.

I agree with See Ya's post about writers who only post (and of course, want to be read), but never comment on other people's work. No matter how good their writing is, after a while, you wonder if this is just about writing or is it about writing and being a part of a community that grows and learns from each other. Just my two cents.

Barry Basden
Aug 22, 02:08pm

I'm sure many here remember the infamous heavyweight fave-for-fave grudge match a few seasons ago. Both those wonderful writers have abandoned fnaut and, as far as I know, still don't communicate or even acknowledge each other.

What a pity.

And may I also say, thank you, thank you, thank you for reading my work, whether you comment or not.

I absolutely love so much of the writing and writers here. I read an awful lot of it looking for unpublished gems that might fit CPR. And if you scan its archives, you can see I've found a bunch.

Thank you, thank you, thank you again.

And GLTA. The writing gig is hard enough without so much angst and hard feelings.

Amantine B
Aug 22, 02:26pm

I think anyone only interested in being read should be part of the publishing mainstream and be absorbed into disinterested readership network that amounts to sales statistics and not much more by way of best seller listings or similar.

Personally I far prefer engagement with a cultivated and nurtured readership with both non-writers and writers alike. If mutual support and encouragement, that might occasionally encompass constructive criticism or feedback have no real value then it undermines the very fabric of such a community driven platform. We may as well all line up to be devoured by the Amazons of this world.

I don't read or fav or publish here driven by some sense of tit for tat however: I think following reading, favouring and commenting should be natural, organic and truthful. It undermines others if it is construed with some agenda. Gratuitous posting is just narcissistic and self-absorbed. It has little to do with writing.

I'd like to think my work speaks for itself and wins respect on its own merit, not because of some disingenuous back-patting mutual admiration society totally lacking in substance. There is enough of that online to have me withdraw from other online writing communities in the recent past. Would hate to discover the same kind of dynamics here.

Charlotte Hamrick
Aug 22, 03:10pm

Just to add to my last comment, another reason I take this approach to reading/commenting/faving is because of the sheer number of writers and posts here. Also, to be clear, my comments and favs are genuine and not a part of tit for tat in any way.

whatwouldbukowskido
Aug 22, 10:06pm

"tit for tat"

While understanding the first, I've never understood the second half of that phrase.

Should I increase my collection of "tats"?

Are they exchangeable in the free market?

Henry Standing Bear
Aug 22, 10:21pm

@Stu @See ya ... You guys are quoting me quoting Darryl Price. You took the whole damn thing the wrong way. But then a sensitive person with seemingly low self-esteem will do that from time to time. I don't post stories here much and I don't comment or fav stories much. I just READ them, you dicks. Is that okay with you all? Or should I adjust my freedom to also do that here? And about eight percent of what I post here in the forum is about OTHER writers and THEIR work. I swear, sometimes you guys ain't nothing but of bunch of old ladies. Get over it. And, if you're going to quote me and make weak ass attempts to bash me, at least have the decency to refer to me by name. It's just cowardly and weak not to do so.

One of you, I believe, is Matt Dennison. If so, @Matt ... Seriously, bub. I wrote an honest fucking review of your book like TWO YEARS ago and you have gone completely off the reservation about it with me here. Are you that soft? I know you are a good writer, but damn if I know how you got there having that much of a serious problem with honest criticism. Jesus Christ, man.

Henry Standing Bear
Aug 22, 10:36pm

Okay, Stu is Sally Houtman, and See Ya (once what I used as a name here when I left because of pure foolishness and probably not a coincidence) is Matt Dennison. What the bloody hell? I reckon Matt you do it to stay off the internet radar or something like that you said once. I get that a little but can't figure out why because, well, why would you want to hide your membership and activity to this community? That seems fucked up to me, but whatever.

And Sally, I have no idea about you except that you're maybe like one of the ladies who used to sit in my workshops while I was in graduate school and argue how a short story based on your summer trip to Paris and the vineyard you and your doctor husband planted while wine testing and listening to obscure classical music is viable fiction. Maybe you're not like that, but that's what I'm picking up on, for what it's worth.

Letitia Coyne
Aug 22, 10:49pm

I've picked the wrong moment, but I need to clarify --I was referring to myself as not having the knowledge to make valuable comments.

There are so many writers here who are genius - Sam, Bill, Matt, Sally, Gary, Marcus a long long list - and when they comment, it carries the weight of understanding the medium. I don't have that deep understanding and so I think my comments are little more than a 'fav' with words.

I did not mean to suggest most comments were worthless. Sorry.

Also, everyone posts here to be read and the number of reads, although mostly silent, suggests that we are all read by a large number of readers. Writers/readers. Just silent, as are most people when it comes to feedback.

Enough.

Lxx

whatwouldbukowskido
Aug 22, 11:25pm

"I don't have that deep understanding"

But you DO, as a human being, reading from the age of kindergarten on.

The only purpose of poetry is pleasure.

Verbal equivalent of eating of fried chicken, taking a GREAT SHIT... it's all in the same continuum.

If it gives you pleasure, all one has to say (if so inclined) is

I LIKE IT.

It ain't rocket surgery.

Letitia Coyne
Aug 22, 11:53pm

That begins the discussion on art and beauty, doesn't it.

The National Gallery of Australia purchased Blue Poles in 1973 for A$1.3 million. At the time there was outrage from the general public who saw some messy stripes on a paint spattered background. Those who knew and understood Pollock's work and [A]rt were delighted.

Time proved the wisdom of the purchase in investment terms, but the purchase was only made because people with a deep love and understanding of [A]rt held the purse-strings. If it had been left to the general 'I don't know art but I know what I like' population, it would have been rejected.

That is true of all forms of art. I struggle to read Joyce and enjoy only small parts of Ulysses and cannot begin to read Finnegan's Wake. Those who understand the complexities of writing see the beauty and skill behind the words on the page.

I see poems here that make no sense to me at all and that have no emotional impact. But if I read the comments of people like Bill and Sam, I recognize the fact that it is my inability to appreciate the work more than any lack in the poem itself. If that makes any sense.

Lxx

whatwouldbukowskido
Aug 23, 12:09am

"But if I read the comments of people like Bill and Sam"

Nah.

Screw 'em.

They're just talking the inbred talky-talk of the accepted talky-talk of the inbred academic talky-talk talkers.

They have never laughed.
They have never smiled.

YOU've laughed and smiled
from an early age on.

YOU'RE good to go.

Sally Houtman
Aug 23, 12:26am

To say that a work of art is good, but incomprehensible to the majority of men, is the same as saying of some kind of food that it is very good but that most people can't eat it."

--Leo Tolstoy

.....
If it tastes good to *you*, then say so.

Don't worry about how it was made.

Or how anyone else says it tastes.

All that matters is how it tastes to *you*.

Letitia Coyne
Aug 23, 12:28am

You're terrible, Muriel.

They laugh and smile. I've seen them.

There is something more than just 'I like it'/'I don't like it' in art. It doesn't have to be the basis for elitism, even though it often is.

Einstein said if you can't explain it simply you don't understand it, and my professor at CSIRO used to say scientific jargon was used to create an illusion of exclusivity. There are not many here who spruik elitism.

I will try harder to comment in future. :)
Lxx

whatwouldbukowskido
Aug 23, 12:35am

"They laugh and smile. I've seen them"

One example, please.

;-)

Sam Rasnake
Aug 23, 12:37am

Wow, Matt. I keep forgetting that you are the know all, see all in this end of the universe.

And, as for your latest poem post- It's a good one, and I stated why. Granted, I didn't say it your way. Thought I'd say it my way.

whatwouldbukowskido
Aug 23, 01:07am

SAM>>>

You're cool, you're alright.

I know (and apologize for) I've made many
*heartfelt* negative comments on your work.

I've just never seen you exhibit any humanity/humor/personal presence in your poetry or your comments.

But seriously, to describe another's work as "good writing"

is the most dispibulating/dismissive/ insulting/dismissive/presumptve/assumptive
pose one could ever entake.

Carol Reid
Aug 23, 01:08am

Ha! yes. Are you smiling/laughing, Sam? because I sure as hell am :)

Carol Reid
Aug 23, 01:22am

My comment directed exclusively at Sam's, just to be clear,not the intervening one by Matt.

Charlotte Hamrick
Aug 23, 04:31am

"Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream." - Don Miguel Ruiz

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Sally Houtman
Aug 23, 04:46am

Charlotte Hamrick!!!

Why you, I oughta...

There you go again with your sane and your rational and your well-considered responses.

Sheesh.

:)

And that, as Hemmingway might say, is perhaps a fine place to draw a line under this discussion.

Thanks all for the lively discourse.

Chris Okum
Aug 28, 11:54pm

I'm particularly fond of the people who pop in here once every six months, get their fill of compliments and adoration, and then waltz out the door without so much as recognizing anyone else here on the site, as if they are the guest of honor at an event commemorating their sheer awesomeness. I think that's pretty classy.

Sally Houtman
Aug 29, 02:29am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjKGQqy_tYM

Wesley Baines
Aug 29, 01:16pm

You know, after reading this conversation, I'm going to start actually commenting on people's work. I've been a member here for a while, and have read a lot of writing here, but have yet to comment. I just figured that people could get better comments from someone else...but that's not true. It was just me being lazy.

So that's my perspective of a non-poster.

Charlotte Hamrick
Aug 29, 02:02pm

Good for you, Donnie. I'm glad a positive has come out of this thread. Now that I know of you, I'll check out your stuff.

Darryl Price
Aug 29, 07:56pm

I just read through this whole thread, and I don't know about anyone else here but me, but I don't like being told all these rules that some seem to think need to be imposed on all of us. I hate the idea of having to comment just because I've got some time to visit. I like reading what others have written. I get a kick out of it. It pretty much fascinates the hell out of me and sometimes even inspires me to be more original or creative. Most times I'm just thankful for the world being full of so many interesting, talented people who happen to be writers. But if I'm being forced to comment if I read or explore something, I'm out. I want to comment if I feel like it. That doesn't mean anything either. I might read a piece but have nothing to say--being forced to come up with something just because I like a piece strikes me as being all wrong.I want it to feel right. Otherwise why do it? I didn't join an army. I thought it was just a bunch of like minded folks who love to express themselves through writing. I'm all for that. But if I have to follow some list of rules to be considered important to the community, I've got another think coming.

David Ackley
Aug 29, 08:34pm

Why do you use words like "rules," several times, and "imposed," and "forced to,"
Darryl, when nothing like that has been implied or is even possible? When all that's happening is that people are having a good healthy discussion, and offering their opinions about what's desirable if you're going to participate in this site? Other people have their opinions, you have yours, but please, save the hyperbole( that's not a rule, just a thought.).

Darryl Price
Aug 29, 10:32pm

As you wish, David.But it doesn't make it any less true just because you've managed to categorize my statement to your liking, or disliking in this instance. All I'm saying is we are not trying to jeopardize anyone's career here or step in the way of opportunity for advancement simply by not being outspoken more often about what we like and don't like. So, I use words like rules because that's what it feels like to me--why would I lie? You use words like hyperbole because you want to attack, fine. And that makes it more than a thought of yours, David.

Matthew Robinson
Aug 30, 01:16am

Let's stop beating around the bush, Darryl. It sounds pretty obvious what's going on here: you're wondering why everyone else is getting fresh baked cookies and you're not. Everyone's cookie system is different, but, for me, whenever I make 5 comments on Fictionaut, one fresh chocolate chip cookie appears in my microwave. I have gout, mind you, so sometimes I must abstain from this cookie exchange for my health, and it's not a perfect system, either. Once, a pancake appeared in my medicine cabinet. That was uncomfortable for many reasons. But, yeah, I guess you need to make penance to the Fictionaut Cookie Illuminati if you really want to know what all the fuss is about. Now, if you'll excuse me, I just bought my first toaster, and have a date with a loaf of sourdough and some jam.

Sally Houtman
Aug 30, 04:24am

M. J. - A couple weeks ago a blueberry danish appeared in my sock drawer.

I messaged Jurgen and he said the cookie exchange system was experiencing some bedding in problems.

They're trying to source a new bakery and update the contract terms.

So, watch this space.

whatwouldbukowskido
Aug 30, 08:19pm

“I don't like being told all these rules”
What rules?
“that some”
Who?
“need to be imposed”
Who said this?
“all of us”
Who is “us”?
“I hate the idea of having to comment”
Then don’t.
“I like reading what others have written”
Good.
“But if I'm being forced to comment”
Who is forcing you?
“I didn't join an army”
WTF does this mean?
“But if I have to follow some list of rules”
What rules? What list? Please give examples.
“to be considered important”
WTF does this mean?
“I've got another think coming.”
WTF does this mean?
……………………

“you've managed to categorize my statement to your liking”
Mr. Ackley merely repeated your words.
“we are not trying to jeopardize anyone's career”
Who is “we”? What is a “career”? vis-à-vis Fictionaut?
“I use words like rules because that's what it feels like to me”
Feeling often get in the way of truth.
“You use words like hyperbole because you want to attack”
That’s an egregious/slanderous assumption on your part.
“And that makes it more than a thought of yours,”
This makes no coherent sense at all.

Darryl Price
Aug 31, 11:54pm

Geez, really? Should I play the game, too? Nah, too boring(don't forget to use that one). Look you can say my feelings aren't real feelings all you want, but they still feel pretty real to me.I'll be leaving this site as soon as I can get my stuff packed up.And good luck to you.

Letitia Coyne
Sep 10, 11:21am

So, I carefully made a comment on everything I read. I tried to find something intelligent to say on everything I liked.

I was asked to comment on one piece by a talented author who had been reluctant to post.

She left. I'm horrified.

I'm back to silent liking unless I genuinely have something more than *Enjoyed this to say.

Sorry Sal. I'm not much good at encouraging. :)

Lxx

Jane Flett
Sep 11, 11:01pm

Oh man. I've been away from Fictionaut for a while but come back every so often to post something. Once every six months or so to get my adoration, maybe?

When I'm around, I do read things and do some commenting and starring things and check in on the forums.

The main reason I don't come here more often is because these days my job is teaching creative writing, so I spend my days giving comments and feedback, and have less inclination to do so in my spare time. I don't post because I feel — evidently rightly, from this thread — that it would be considered selfish to do that if I don't have time to return the favour. Which is fair enough. That's the way the site works.

But there is also another reason, and since you asked...

I find the whole multiple aliases and constant name changes and certain comment/forum threads really alienating. Like this site has become a big in-joke that I'm not in on.

It puts me – as someone who generally is pretty confident and opinionated and has been on this site for a while – off getting involved. As if I don't "get it" and am not particularly welcome because of that. And I reckon if I was new, I would find it ten times as hard.

I think if I were new now, I would read things, and maybe fav them, but getting involved in the conversations would be like walking up to the clique at school and telling them "Oh, HAI GUYS! here's what I think about X". And...that is hard.

I don't think anyone intentionally means it to come off like that, and perhaps the enjoyment that comes from doing it is worth more than the unknown, potential involvement of new people? Because maybe it wouldn't make any difference? But yeah, it's there for me and maybe for other too.

Jx

Jane Flett
Sep 11, 11:02pm

*for others too

Jane Flett
Sep 11, 11:11pm

Also, "return the favour" is the wrong phrase. I love reading work here when I get the chance.

Gary Hardaway
Sep 12, 10:56am

Always a treat when Jane Flett posts something new.

Keen observations, Jane.
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