Forum / Open Letter to a Jerk

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 16, 09:26pm

  You (and you know who YOU ARE) are not that new to this site, therefore that is a lame excuse for your crappy behavior. You attempted to annoy me TWICE and I'm sorry to say you didn't annoy me. You just set yourself up to be a jerk. You are the one who loses here, because I am deeply supportive of my friends, and you will NEVER be my friend.
  Now Goodbye

• 
  Jennifer L. Lopez

  Apr 16, 09:46pm

  amen. :-) we don't like jerks.

• 
  Matthew A. Hamilton

  Apr 20, 02:01am

  I hope we can weed the jerks out of this site. I like it here and I find that most people here are friendly and supportive.

  Would there be a way to limit the number of users on this site?

  More importantly, how can we keep from jerks participating?

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 20, 10:25am

  I suppose a lot of factors can create a jerk. We've all been jerks at one time or another in our lives. But there is no space for jerks in a great writer community like F'Naut, where the keyword here is "community."

  Most everyone here seems to interpret this as a place of help, kindness, support and good will. I feel good every time I open onto this site. So much incredible writing going on here that it boggles the mind. Plus the friendships created that extend beyond oceans, mountains, plains, the clouds

• 
  Susan Gibb

  Apr 20, 11:07am

  Oh my. What did someone do?

• 
  Carol Reid

  Apr 20, 03:57pm

  I've tried out lots of sites. I've found Fnaut to be surprisingly jerk-free.

  Hope whatever the problem is resolves itself.

• 
  Dale Marlowe

  Apr 20, 07:17pm

  I am, as we write, being a huge jerk. :-)

• 
  Carol Reid

  Apr 20, 08:34pm

  haha, as usual, I spoke too soon :)

• 
  Kog Zadare

  Apr 20, 11:22pm

  In defense of the Jerk

  If the jerk were here, she might defend herself by pointing out that the jerk is not in the eye of the beholder, but rather the jerk is the eye that beholds "jerkness".

  Thank you for your kind interest in this intense learning exercise.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 21, 08:01am

  None of you who posted here are "The Jerk."
  Now I'm not saying that you don't have your jerky moments, as we all do, but as of right now, none of you are the Official Jerk (aka the Jerk in Question)

  Note To Zoe: it's interesting that you conceptualized the jerk as a "she" since I didn't reveal the Jerk's Gender
  Perhaps The Jerk is occuping a gender-free zone? (though doubtful). Jerks often strike from a gender based motive

• 
  David Lindsay

  Apr 21, 12:13pm

  Okay, is BEING a jerk offensive, or just ACTING like a jerk on Fictionaut the problem. I need a clarification, because I'm pretty jerky. And, in all my long life (I'm 103 years old) I've never heard a woman referred to as a jerk. If that means anything.

• 
  Kog Zadare

  Apr 21, 06:48pm

  Yes, I think Judith Butler's thesis that "gender is a symptom of Jerk" is cogent here. Obviously the jerk must be described ontologically as an 'actant" a la Bennette.

  Thank you for this important opportunity to self correct.

• 
  Gary Percesepe

  Apr 21, 08:06pm

  i thought the jerk was steve martin?

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 21, 08:22pm

  You have fallen a bit behind on The Jerk conversation, Gary. We now have a new posting: Clue to The Jerk. The winner receives a bag of kibbles and bits

• 
  Kog Zadare

  Apr 21, 11:23pm

  Why do you hate snoop so?

  Where oh where did my little dog go. Oh where oh where did she go. With her tail cut short and her ears cut long. Oh where oh where can she be ...

• 
  Doggone

  Apr 22, 07:46am

  I am hurt and furious. If after approximately one week at the site, I violated its rules, I apologize. In fact, I apologized immediately to the person who thought my remarks inappropriate. I also agreed to no longer comment on her work, since that was her wish. I then discover that in this “Forum” section of the site there is a kangaroo court – someone, un-named, is pronounced a “jerk” by the person who I offended. Apparently my apology was not sufficient. I then withdrew my poems and adopted an alias – and waited to see what would happen.

  I was invited to participate in this site by one of the members who said that I would appreciate the excellent writers and an interesting discussion. I regret that I have violated, apparently, one of the unwritten rules. Being labeled a “jerk” is unpleasant – and perhaps you who want to remain members of this community should have an honest discussion of what the rules are. I would like to withdraw from this “community” and would appreciate being dropped from the roster of members.

• 
  Darryl Price

  Apr 22, 10:00am

  wOW!This thing really went downhill, didn't it? I don't know the circumstances at all-just what's posted here, but the results I see make me sad. Disappointment, name-calling, hurt,withdrawal.Yipes! I hope no one is secretly calling me a jerk. I hope I'm not acting like a jerk right now. I hope I don't feel the need to ever pick my jerky self up off the floor and leave the building in shame. Okay Now I'm just being paranoid.But, I mean, Ouch!Thank God Gary has a sense of humor.There probably is a line--there should be a line--but it's just the line that's already in the whole world if you ask me.Treat others with respect. We don't need to put it down here too.Can't we remember this on our own? If it's crossed it's a bad thing--granted--but it's not war to the death, or is it?

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 22, 10:10am

  You are hurt and furious? I believe that is what is known as "psychological projection"-- the shifting of your own misconduct onto others. If you are so free of guilt, then why did you change your name to a dog name and run behind a bush to hide all these days? Your comments to me were personal and not about the material I presented on this site. You knew exactly what you were saying when you commented, you made a choice now live with it
  

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 22, 10:12am

  my note was intended for Doggone, not Darryl who popped into the middle of this unpleasant discourse

• 
  Kog Zadare

  Apr 22, 09:40pm

  Not to be too much of an unfeeling jerk, but I have long been curious about "projection calling", as such. "Freudians" talk about transference and counter transference, but why not go on forever with a hall of mirrors counter-counter-counter transference? No doubt it is useful describing the Doctor patient interaction, but elsewhere...

  Properly though, I believe, any accused/calumniated person is free to employ the Lacanian formulation, "The person supposed to be misconducting themselves.", i.e what he/she is in the fantasy space of the other/prosecuting attorney.

• 
  Jürgen Fauth

  Apr 26, 01:18pm

  Sorry I didn't see this sooner. I get a little concerned when people leave Fictionaut because of name-calling and "unwritten rules." I'd appreciate it if someone could explain to me what happened here, preferably in an email. Thanks.

• 
  Jürgen Fauth

  Apr 26, 05:05pm

  OK:

  Generally, constructive criticism is very much welcome on Fictionaut. The tone on Fictionaut is very supportive, but that doesn't mean that only positive comments are allowed. There are no "unwritten rules" regarding this. When in doubt, the author's note should give you an idea whether or not a writer is interested in criticism or nothing but praise. There are also specific groups, private and hidden, for workshopping stories.

  We don't endorse hateful or abusive comments or personal attacks. However, everybody's idea of what constitutes useful criticism and what constitutes abuse is different. That's why every writer has complete control over which comments are displayed on their stories and profile. If you don't like a comment or wall post, you can delete it.

  From what I can see, Charles/Doggone never crossed the line from criticism to personal attack. His comments were critical but seem to have been offered in good faith. I wish Susan had simply deleted the offending comments or taken it up with Charles personally instead of calling him out in the forums, which resulted in him deciding to leave the site. I'm sorry to see him go, and I apologize for not stepping in sooner.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 26, 06:06pm

  My story St. Barts was called "nasty" by Charles Levenstein/Doggone. That is not constructive criticism and crossed the line.

• 
  John Slade

  Apr 26, 06:45pm

  I would like to know exactly what the problem is. Seems like you want roses thrown at you for every random thought that comes in your head. Why not be open to criticism. This person was just being honest. No need acting like this.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 26, 07:06pm

  John Slade-- why not try posting a story of yours, I noticed your page is empty. Put your money where your mouth is

• 
  John Slade

  Apr 26, 07:40pm

  What is that supposed to mean. Is this a competition for you. That would explain a lot....Maybe you should try and put some thought into what you post instead of acting like a child looking for validation. Everyone has random thoughts. The argument would be does anyone want to read it...

• 
  John Slade

  Apr 26, 07:43pm

  Besides your friends and close relatives of course....

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 26, 08:12pm

  John Slade-- forgive me for overestimating your intelligence. I will try and make it clearer: write something. post it. show you have balls or shut up

• 
  John Slade

  Apr 26, 08:38pm

  SUSAN TEPPER - Writing is not a competition. It is something from the heart...It is people like you that made kids like me skip school and go to the public library to find people that did it for me. So thanks.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 26, 08:49pm

  John, I'm really glad you told me that, that stuff about writing being from the heart and all... geez... I had no idea. From the heart, you say? Thank you so much for your powerful words. I'll keep that message always close to my heart. When you are up there accepting your Pulitzer, I will say to the great unwashed masses: That is John Slade and he told me what truth is all about

• 
  John Slade

  Apr 26, 08:57pm

  Ha ha ...I said before it was a competition with you....Pulitzer...Ha ha ha ha...you must be off your meds...

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 26, 09:11pm

  Meds? Never had the need. I write stories. But you don't. So you must be on lots, since you are the one who broached the subject of meds (that means "brought up" the subject, in case I lost you there for a moment).
  You sound a bit lost. A little lost lamb. Gotta go now. Have to catch a plane...
  Keep the faith John
  

• 
  John Slade

  Apr 26, 09:16pm

  I will submit...that was kind of funny.....have to catch a plane. classic...you are something.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 26, 09:26pm

  I do have to catch a plane. But can hardly wait to read your story. That's a lot of pressure, you know, on you-- all that build-up to it here in the Forum, almost like they spin those Pulitzer contestants (I know, I know, I slipped again, it's my competitive nature). You sure you're not a contestant? Come on, you must be, the way you've been spinning hype about 5 posts now here in the mighty Roman Forum. Don't get sweaty palms, John, just type type type type, you can do it...
  Have a good week

• 
  John Slade

  Apr 27, 08:20am

  If I ripped a fart it would be better than what you write.

• 
  Sam Rasnake

  Apr 27, 11:45pm

  Jürgen, I understand your point about "no 'unwritten rules'" at Fictionaut, and maybe that's a weakness here. I don't know - can't say. But I do know this is a community, and as such we need to have the we're-in-this-together focus. Rules sometimes help keep us in focus. I also understand your point about the difference between dealing with a problem in public or private. But that's a difference in people.

  What offends you, may not turn my head. What sets me off, may not register with you. But, it really doesn't matter whether you or I think someone crossed a line here. Ultimately, it's the person on the receiving end who makes that call.

  In a writer's group - and this is a big writer's group - community is foremost. More important than criticism, suggestion, analysis, comment, and the like... They're all secondary. If community isn't present, the criticism - positive or negative - won't matter. This sounds like an argument for joining specific groups here. There's more of a vested interested in people. And that's good.

• 
  Susan Gibb

  Apr 28, 05:12am

  Sam, you put it well. I might only add that the front page here--as well as the welcoming invite to potential members--might stress the tone and clarify that this is not a critique circle. New folks simply don't have the guidelines and likely don't see these forum issues before they settle in.

• 
  Jürgen Fauth

  Apr 28, 10:59am

  The distinction I was trying to make is between what may be offensive to an individual writer and what's acceptable on the site.

  Clearly, having her story called "nasty" was not acceptable to Susan, and, like Sam says, that's her call. She has the option to delete the offending comment. (An option to block another member from commenting on your pages is on our ever-growing todo list, but in the meantime, deleting comments seems like a sufficient workaround.)

  That said, if you look up Charles' comment in its entirety (http://www.fictionaut.com/stories/susan-tepper/stbarts-a-horror-movie), it's obvious to me that it was made in good faith. Charles quotes another comment and also calls the story "on target and painful." This strikes me as an honest attempt at feedback and criticism, and it's certainly not a personal attack on Susan. Given the context of a darkly humorous satire, "nasty" could even be read as a kind of compliment.

  In other words, nobody is contesting Susan's right to take offense or delete the comment. I am sorry she was hurt by it. But Charles didn't break any Fictionaut rules, and he didn't deserve to be driven off the site by this forum thread. At the very least, I wish we could have had an honest discussion here from the start and referred to people by their names -- one reason it took me so long to respond was that I didn't exactly know what Susan's original post was referring to.

  Anybody who's been to a fiction workshop knows that getting feedback on your writing can be tricky business. One of my classes famously began with the words, "Would you like us to discuss your story, or should we line up and beat you with our belt buckles?" As it turned out, the belt buckles would have been less painful. I don't advocate actual violence, but there has to be room for honest and less than fawning feedback on Fictionaut. You don't have to allow it on your stories, of course, but if Fictionaut is going to continue to thrive and grow, we can't chase new members who give honest responses off the site. There has to be room for both.

• 
  Sam Rasnake

  Apr 28, 12:32pm

  I agree, Jürgen, about the need for both approaches to comment/criticism … the honest and the less than fawning - That is true. But the best atmosphere for that is, of course, the private groups here at Fictionaut. In my opinion, and that's all it is, the public wall and even public groups are not the best place for real criticism - that is both analytical and constructive in a complete sense. Yes, you will get a quick read and, for the most part, a short blurb. A yes or a no. A fav, or not. I liked it because… or I didn’t because… and there are exceptions to this, but not many. As a writer, I want more than that. I want readers, yes – we all do. But as a writer, I’m hoping for more than the drive-by read. I'm also tmart enough to know that even the casual reading of my work is important too. And I don't want to discount that.

  Private groups, on the other hand, are very suited for the type of criticism that’s needed because of the time and space that can be devoted to particular works - just like an actual writers' group. What is needed - like should be a part of a writers' group? A clear level of trust, close reads, the attention given to detailed comments, the back and forth - helpful & constructive, and, as you mention, that includes belt buckles from time to time…the tear-it-down-and-build-it-up-again approach that makes a writers' group beneficial. If that’s from my close-knit community/circle of writers, I can grow with it. It does help – certainly helps me. The public wall - or even for the most part - public groups here aren’t well suited for that ... but the private groups are - at least to my mind.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 28, 01:01pm

  OK-- Here they are:

  2 comments (out of many) on my script "St. Barts (a horror movie)"
  
  First, a positive comment by Walter Bjorkman--the comment that triggered the negative comment by Charles Levenstein (aka Doggone).

  Levenstein didn't have the moxie to "have his say" but had to drag in Walt and make it confrontational.
  That is the sign of a true COWARD.

  Of course, Jurgen can rationalize this any way he chooses, that's his perogative.
  
  Now For The Comments:

  Walter Bjorkman, Apr 06
  Haaa! I've spent more than a drink of sangria in the Caribbean, saw & heard some crazy stuff, but this tops it all. Great dialogue of dysfunction in action, a hidden hand-held camera in paradise lost! Great.
  
  Doggone, Apr 12
  I think Walt said "disfunction in action" -- I didn't think it was funny. I thought it was on target and painful. A little nasty too.

  Final note on this from the author of "St. Barts":

  Levenstein hit me more than once. It was then that I went on Forum.

  What did he find "painful" about my story?
  Is Levenstein an overweight blonde female in a string bikini?

  Why haven't the overweight blonde females in the string bikinis come screaming out of the woodwork at me? Why didn't they find it "painful"?

  Why? Because Levenstein is a troublemaker. Plain and simple.
  
  And I am totally disgusted.
  
  

• 
  H-M Brown

  Apr 28, 03:11pm

  I'm totally disgusted by your behavior Susan.

  Really? Two lines. TWO LINES.

  You're bent out of shape over TWO LINES.

  You dragged the whole entire community down over TWO LINES.

  You chased out a member of OUR community over TWO LINES.

  Yes. I am stressing the word TWO LINES because this goes beyond childish rhetoric you displayed.

  IT'S UNPROFESSIONAL!

  You can't handle a TWO LINE criticism. Like you're the only person in the world hurt by negative criticism. ALL OF US WRITERS here and everywhere face negative criticism, but do you see us running to the message boards to chase people out over it?

  NO! NO! NO!

  And don't give US that "It's the Principle" talk either, because there is no excuse for what you just displayed here.

  You humiliated a member of OUR community because he did not like your story. Then you start attacking everyone else in this forum post and elsewhere because they don't side with you. Then, to makes matters worse you put Mr. Bjorkman on the spot. I don't see him in this post complaining about Mr. Levenstein. I don't even see a single forum topic by Mr. Bjorkman regarding Mr. Levenstein. He is not bent out of shape over Mr. Levenstein. Why are you?

  I'm sorry but when did you get the exclusive patent on Fictionaut that you can cry on the message boards to get things your way when people don't praise or stand behind you at a moments whine?

  And I checked all of your story posts, and Mr. Levenstein only commented in St Bart's and Alter. TWO STORIES. So what are you freaking out over? Because its the only comment that went against all the other positive comments you received? Are you really that full of yourself that suddenly you think you're next Jane Austin?

  You challenged people to post their stories and put their money where their mouth is? How adult of you. If you think you're THAT "great", then why are you still here you on Fictionaut and not on Random House, Little Brown and Company, or Scholastic?

  I'm here thinking that Mr. Levenstein was harassing you in all your story posts, hurting you, maybe through your EMails. I take that as a serious issue because that could have been any one of us. But no, your only complaint is TWO LINES of negative critism.

  So what you think you have the right to attack every one of us that doesn't like your stories? Or you can challenge people when they call you out for making an unprofessional post like this?

  What? Do you think you can do this to us? What power or connections you think you have over us that you feel you can stop us from saying what we think, or even write a story we want on Fictionaut? Really, WE members at Fictionaut are supposed to be afraid of you?

  Ooohh look out with what you say to Susan stories or she will go on the forums and call you a jerk for writing TWO LINES of negative criticism on her stories. Please.

  Mr. Fauth is not even on your side and he is one of the people that runs OUR community. A community that he and many others went out of their way to make for writers like us. This is how you repay their efforts. By chasing out members, so they can run to another website and say bad things about OUR community and lump OUR community in their negative comments as you.

  Don't you brush this off either, because this is the internet, and people do run to other sites sharing their bad experiences and create a negative impression on a site that proomotes community and inclusiveness. It may be a stretch to you, but none of us, not even you, knows Mr. Levenstein and what type of person he could be or capable of doing.

  We don't even know if some of us here that you have no prpblem calling are actually Literary Agents or Publishing Editors. Hidden under faux names just to see what we're about and not draw attention to themselves. You never thought about that did you? Great way to make an impression, isn't it?

  Yeah, you don't have to agree with what Mr. Levenstein said. No one has to agree with what anyone says. But that doesn't give us the green light, obligation, or the right, to make a post like yours in OUR COMMUNITY and chase away a member of Fictionaut over TWO LINES.

  Rather than doing this, why not just write some more stories like a professional and prove him and other negative comment critics wrong.

  TWO LINES!

  GET OVER YOURSELF SUSAN!

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 28, 04:24pm

  To HM Brown:
  Here is what I'm sorry about:

  1-- I'm sorry I was welcoming to you at Cornelia Street over the winter.
  2-- I'm sorry I encouraged you to come to future readings and read your poems in the open mic.
  3-- I'm sorry I introduced you to the host so he would know you if you came again.
  4-- I'm sorry I gave you a complimentary copy of my book.

  "No good deed goes unpunished."

  You have levelled an attack on me that is off the charts. It is leagues ahead of anything said on the Forum to make Charles Levenstein DECIDE TO LEAVE.

  Now understand this: I do not sit down with my mouth shut when someone (you, Levenstein, anyone) belts me with a comment in the pejorative.
  
  
  

• 
  H-M Brown

  Apr 28, 05:21pm

  Susan listen to yourself, look at what your writing. You made Mr. Levenstein sound like he has been posting EMails harrasing you and made comments non-stop like a troll. Then you made these forum posts expecting a lynch mob to back you up and attack him. I would be at your side if he was threatening you, but he isn't and you want it to look that way so everyone would lynch him with you.

  Seriously, you chose to take a problem that was between you and Mr. Levenstein out into the Court of Public Opinion, IN TWO SEPERATE FORUM POSTS, and now we find out that it is all over TWO LINES he wrote in your story that you don't agree with.

  In your mind he is perjorative. FINE! You don't have to accept his criticism, no one says you have to take his critcism. But that doesn't give you the right to humiliate him or anyone else in the public forums of Fictionaut. Or anywhere else for that matter.

  Really? You're going to pick a fight with every one of us on Fictionaut that does not agree or side with you. Or give 1 star to your story.

  YOU ARE WRONG!!

  YOU HAVE NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS!!

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 28, 05:52pm

  I see, HM.
  But it gives you the "right" to humiliate me publicly?
  Jane Austin?
  A book at Random House?
  Susan get over yourself?
  And whatever else you spouted in your fury.

  I believe in the public forum.
  I believe that if one speaks or writes in the pejorative, that person has to take the consequences of their action.
  I believe in bringing crap into the light of day.
  I don't believe in arbitrary meanness.

  And I will say that your calling my posting to the Forum a "lynch mob" is way over the top.

  You should re-read your first posting. What you most objected to, you have turned around and done right back to me.
  So what does that tell you?
  

• 
  H-M Brown

  Apr 28, 06:12pm

  Let's count the posts you created in these forums:

  1) Open Letter to a Jerk
  2) Clue to the Jerk
  3) The Jerk Can't Leave Innocent People Alone

  Says more about you than it does about me.

  And unlike you, I made rational points about what's wrong with this picture that YOU presented to the Ficionaut Community.

  Can we say OVERKILL about you before you judge me, and anybody else for the matter.

  Three seperate posts, three seperate attacks to Mr. Levenstein. You hold him in all three posts to one or two "Pejoratives" that you could have just let slide off your back.

  Guess what, everyone gets told a pejorative, me included, ALL THE TIME. You have no immunity to it, none of us do. Does that mean we have to make three forums post attacking that person over it and chase them out of the Ficionaut community, instead of going to that person's face and deal with them personally?

  NO! NO! NO!

  People are still commenting good things on your stories, me included, and you still have the ability to write some more on Fictionaut. Mr. Levenstein did not, in any way, stop you from being a writer or posting your stories up on Fictionaut. You are only stopping yourself if you can't handle TWO LINES of critism.

  And I say for a third time:

  You don't have to take people's criticism, but that doesn't give you the RIGHT to humiliate and chase out any Fictionaut member in a public forum over their criticism.

  Again I will repeat:

  You don't have to take people's criticism, but that doesn't give you the RIGHT to humiliate or chase out any Fictionaut member in a public forum over their criticism.

  I've said my piece.

  Good day to you Ma'am.

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 28, 06:23pm

  You haven't apologized for "publicly humiliating me" as your response to what you perceive as my wrong-doing.

  You therefore owe me an apology.

  Otherwise you are guilty of the same charge that you have levelled against me.

  Can you be guilty of what you claim I am guilty of?

  Can you live with that?

• 
  Ramon Collins

  Apr 28, 06:28pm

  Fictionaught is an outstanding writers' workshop and the talent is overwhelming.

  After 12 years of online writing sites and classes (17), I really think the best approach to reviewing a story is the old "what hits, what misses". Help the writer out by being a careful reader with a "fresh eye".

  We're not First Readers for Fictionaught Publishing, nor Visiting Professors at Fictionaught University.

  Can't we just write and all get along?

• 
  Susan Tepper

  Apr 28, 06:34pm

  HM
  ps--
  I did not chase anyone out.
  He adopted the alias Doggone (interesting choice there) out of a guilty conscience. (he knew what he wrote to me was mean).
  Then he cried like a big baby to get sympathy.
  Well he got yours.
  You 2 should start a Group.
  

• This thread was locked on 2010-04-28 22:24:01 UTC.

  I think this conversation has run its course.