Forum / Up for debate
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 08, 04:26pmCan prose reformatted into stanzas as verse be considered poetry?
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Chris OkumFeb 09, 12:01amYes.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 09, 12:28am
What is your argument as a proponent?
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Dianne McKnight-WarrenFeb 09, 02:42pmYes, it can be but isn't always, obviously. Blank verse is unrhymed iambic pentameter and iambic is the natural rhythm of English and lines can be longer than five meters.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 09, 02:52pm
Thanks, Dianne. I guess my argument (for sake of argument) is that writing a piece of prose -- written as prose initially -- then formatting it into stanzas of verse to be passed off as poetry seems rather less than genuine. I remember an interview John Updike gave and he felt the same way. Not that Updike (or anyone, certainly myself) was necessarily an authority on the subject, since of course it is strictly subjective.
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Dianne McKnight-WarrenFeb 09, 03:11pm
This is the first stanza of Ex-Basketball Player, a poem by Updike.
Pearl Avenue runs past the high-school lot,
Bends with the trolley tracks, and stops, cut off
Before it has a chance to go two blocks,
At Colonel McComsky Plaza. Berth's Garage
Is on the corner facing west, and there,
Most days, you'll find Flick Webb, who helps Berth out.To me, the whole poem could be formatted into paragraphs, but of course Updike was a prose master.
It's an interesting questioning Jeffrey.
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Dianne McKnight-WarrenFeb 09, 03:13pm
question
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 09, 03:25pm
Definitely one of his most-celebrated. I doubt, though, that he wrote it out initially as prose then reformatted into verse. But I do see your point in general, that the poem could be turned into a paragraph as if it were meant to be prose, and probably have a similar effect. I just don't think that starting a piece of writing strictly as prose and then reworking its purpose as a poem is very noble.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 09, 03:28pm
On a side note, I met Updike at a weekend seminar/reading/forum in Cincinnati in 2002. Even got lucky enough to be photographed with him. There's a book on the event (of course I am not mentioned anywhere LOL).
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Dianne McKnight-WarrenFeb 09, 03:50pm
Gary P. met him once too. You should ask him about it.
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Darryl PriceFeb 09, 03:53pmI thought I might weigh in here because a lot of my writing heroes would disagree with you--James Tate, E.E.Cummings, Emily Dickinson. I just think it gets into very bad places to want to tell someone else how they should write or create something. It's the freedom of making your own choices which gives great satisfaction in art. When Andy Warhol wanted to paint soup cans he was told a serious painter only paints famous or rich people,landscapes, or bowls of fruit.In other words, we have a certain way of doing things and if you don't adhere you will be surely kicked out of our rare, but boring society. Thank God he didn't listen. The Beatles couldn't read or write music, but they are considered to be the best in a century, maybe ever. Thank God they didn't listen to the naysayers--and there were many. Still are. Rules are just for rule followers. No one is holding a gun to your head as you write. I think invention and risk are just fine with any kind of art any kind of person might want to make, and it shouldn't be up to you to tell them how they must do it. Do you really think there is only one right way? Your way, or what you believe, or what you've been taught? How closed-minded can you get? Come on. Get a life. Everybody is entitled to freedom of expression. That's their choice, not yours, and not anybody else. You're taking all the fun out of it. Nobody has to read anything they don't want to, or like everything they read. That's what makes the literary world go round. We're all different. Different ideas, different sensibilities, different experiences. Different choices. No one should feel like they can't write the way they want to or about anything they want to. And who are you to call that lazy? You have no idea how hard people work at their art because you are only you--a person who goes around judging others who are different because they don't work and act like you would if you were them. I hope you are not a teacher. If you are, do us all a favor and get out of that profession before you do irreparable harm to young minds.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 09, 04:14pm
Well, thanks for the reply, Darryl, I guess. Not really sure why you feel personally offended. And I don't know why you think I am judging anyone -- I certainly am not. I also never said anyone is lazy, nor was that intended. I only brought this up for debate, and never meant to rub anyone the wrong way. Like I said, it's strictly subjective.
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Dianne McKnight-WarrenFeb 09, 04:15pm
This is a lively discussion!
IMO, it's helpful to know rules in order to break them. A teacher told me once that you have to be able to tour before you can tour de force.
I hope more people engage.
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Darryl PriceFeb 09, 04:38pm
I was just flipping around on my phone and I saw these words: Do Not Negotiate Who You Are. I thought that was good advice. It doesn't mean don't continue to grow as a human being. To me, it means seek authenticity as you go about being yourself. So, to all the young writers on this site, I would amend that saying to: Do not negotiate who you are as a writer. And To Jeffrey--you know I love you, Brother. It's okay to disagree about stuff. We're both just trying to do the best we can with what we got. Good thread.
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Chris OkumFeb 09, 05:00pm
Anything can be poetry. You can type of text from your car's owner's manual and it's poetry. There are no rules. I side with Kenneth Goldsmith on this, not John Updike.
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Dianne McKnight-WarrenFeb 09, 05:20pm
That's terrifying though. What? No framework? Nothing? (I have to go sit in the corner now. I'm pretty sure I'll never write again.)
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 09, 05:20pm
Thanks, Chris, but I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on that point. Poetry -- in its purest sense -- is not prose. They are two different exercises/expressions. Prose from an owner's manual -- or a newspaper article, financial proxy statement, for example -- is never meant to be considered poetic, and turning that into verse/stanzas doesn't automatically make it so. But, as Darryl says, we can all agree to disagree and still get along.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 09, 05:24pm
However, I have seen found poems that sometimes come off as "poetic". So I guess maybe anything is possible, depending on what it is and how the writer writes/presents it.
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Darryl PriceFeb 09, 05:54pm
Take a deep breath, and then take a deep dive into Walt Whitman. Charles Bukowski. Octavio Paz. John Ashbery. ....
"It is likely I would not have devoted myself to poetry in this world which remains insensitive to it, if poetry were not a morality."--Jean Cocteau
"The night drags on. She tries to read.
She feeds the snakes. She yawns
over an abyss. It's such a bore--Tom DischGo very very deep reading into Kenneth Patchen, Pablo Neruda, and Margaret Atwood and James Tate(a master poet who does whatever he wants, invents new ways to do it, and surprises and delights every time)Let's not forget Leonard Cohen.
You'll have loads of fun, I promise.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 09, 06:03pm
And of course those are actual poets, who write actual poetry, and not prose somehow "turned into" poetry.
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Chris OkumFeb 09, 06:20pm
Art (or a poem) is what the artist (or poet) says it is. Duchamp already established this over 100 years ago. The debate has been settled. If a urinal can be a sculpture, then all bets are off, all "rules" are worthless.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 09, 06:30pm
I think the point is being missed, but so be it.
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Chris OkumFeb 09, 06:34pm
What a bizarre conversation to be having in the year 2023, about what constitutes what. I thought these matters were only applicable to the early 20th century, if even that late. And the point is not being missed. You asked if prose can be converted into stanzas as verse ad be considered poetry. My answer is still yes, of course. You can do whatever you want. If you want to take 90 minutes of footage of your cat eating out of the garbage and call it a feature film you can do that as well. The world is yours.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 09, 06:37pm
Well, Chris, so be it.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 09, 06:38pm
If I thought it was going to turn into this, I would never have brought it up.
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Chris OkumFeb 09, 06:40pm
No worries, Jeffrey. No one's mad. I'm not mad. If anything, I'm encouraging you to follow your instincts. You obviously had an idea. I think it's a good one. Unless you brought it up because you are totally opposed to it. In that case, still, be free, make you want, as you see fit. Cheers.
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Dianne McKnight-WarrenFeb 09, 06:42pm
Don't apologize. This is the liveliest Fictionaut has been in years.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 09, 07:42pm
Definitely no more forum posts for me.
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David AckleyFeb 10, 12:41amJeffrey; Don't bail on a discussion this interesting, just what the Forum should be for (IMO).
No one seems to mention the possibility, explored by Baudelaire among others, that prose could BE poetry as in this, excerpted from one of his numerous " Prose Poems " :
"Be always drunken. Nothing else matters : that is the only question. If you would not feel the horrible burden of Time weighing on your shoulders and crushing vou to the earth, be drunken continually..."
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 10, 12:47am
Thanks, David, but being attacked publicly in a forum is not something I (or anyone, I imagine) enjoys, nor definitely expects.
As for prose poems, those are without doubt fine; I've written a few myself. But they were meant to be that, and presented as such.
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Chris OkumFeb 10, 12:53am
No one attacked you, man. Come on.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 10, 12:54am
Besides, as you can see, Mr. Okum considers the debate "over", so since he must be the authority in this post, I suppose it has to be.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 10, 12:56am
Go back to D.P.'s tirade. Clearly a personal affront.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 10, 01:03am
Apologies: Okum considers the matter settled.
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Chris OkumFeb 10, 01:24am
Your funny, dude. Keep up the hissy fit. What else you got?
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 10, 01:26am
Get it right -- it's YOU'RE.
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Chris OkumFeb 10, 01:31am
Who are you, Jeffrey?
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 10, 01:32am
Talk about a bizarre question. I don't truly think you really want to know.
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Chris OkumFeb 10, 01:36am
You the type of person who tries to score points with people by pointing out minor typos? I answered you original question with a yes, and then was pretty benign in my answers to you, going so far as to encourage you to do what you feel is right. I have my aesthetic beliefs, and you have yours. Don't act like a schmuck. Or you can, if you want. You seem to want to. So go all the way. Don't be half-assed about. Give me your best material. Ponting out a typo? Your better than that. Aren't you?
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 10, 01:37am
Done with this.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 10, 01:48am
I want this entire forum thread deleted. Whoever can do that, please do so.
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Darryl PriceFeb 10, 07:55pm
"We don't read and write poetry because it's cute. We read and write poetry because we are members of the Human Race!"--Dead Poets Society
"We will plant songs where there were curses."
"Writing poetry because there is no other way to speak."--Joy Harjo, poet Laureate of the United States
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Darryl PriceFeb 10, 08:10pm
Hey, Jeffrey, you've got to realize that poetry or any writing by writers is taken very seriously by them whether it comes off that way or not. Creative Writing is an important art form and deserves to be taken that way by critics. You don't have to like how or why people write like they do, but people work very hard to express themselves. To some it's an almost impossible task. To even attempt it is a brave thing to do in my opinion because you probably won't be heard. I want everyone to have every chance to create and express their thoughts and feelings through writing, whatever it is they wish to. Yes, rules can certainly apply as guidelines, like pads on bowling lane gutters, but I think it's okay, even imperative, to make mistakes, find your own way. No one is attacking you, they just want to voice their own opinions. Because like I said, writers are a feisty bunch. Writers have always been that way. Ready to mix it up over the very thing they love the most. But underneath, they're all just regular folk. You can't have a lively debate if everyone agrees with everybody else. It's all good.
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eamon byrneFeb 14, 10:07amBlimey! Just when we thought Smiley had a mortgage on the joint.
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David AckleyFeb 14, 02:36pm
Eamon's right Jeffrey, you did all a favor by reminding us what the Forum was meant for. Thanks.
Illigetami non carborundum est. Something like that....
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 14, 05:37pm
Thanks, David. The thing is, I have been a member of FN nearly since its inception. Never have I been bullied on the site until recently. But I've been bullied elsewhere all my life, so one would think I'd be accustomed to it by now. I find it very strange indeed to be bullied by someone who includes "Be kind" in their profile. But WHO AM I to judge.
I have added my personal website to my own FN profile, in case anyone (non-bullies, that is) are interested.
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Darryl PriceFeb 14, 07:20pm
The point is: there is no one right way to write a poem.
I was bullied in school and at home. I don't think bullying is what you think it is. Bullying is violence, betrayal in trust, and emotional unbalancing. Done on purpose for ill intent. Bullies have always been with us, like sharks.
I'm more than willing to leave this site for good to people like you, if that is what you want. I don't need a pat on the head, or a rub on the heart, to believe in myself, but I won't be called names that are lies, Jeffrey.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 14, 08:45pm
I know EXACTLY what bullying is, thank you. No one here has to be concerned over MY presence, because it is obvious it is not welcome. Very sad, indeed.
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Jeffrey S. CallicoFeb 14, 09:17pm
For the record: I never asked or told anyone on this to leave, and I never have/never would. Anyone who has done so certainly did that VOLUNTARILY, as have I.
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