Forum / Jim Hanas on the Slush Pile

Jürgen Fauth
Jul 20, 09:25am

Very interesting piece about the submissions process, who reads literary journals, and whether or not stories posted to writing communities and blogs should be considered "previously published."

http://www.hanasiana.com/archives/001400.html

James Lloyd Davis
Jul 20, 02:43pm

Thank you, Jurgen. This piece is interesting, as you say, and speaks well to the function and potential value of a web site like this one. It also addresses the "previously published" question.

One can only hope that the current 'thrashing about' can finally lead to some positive change in the community of literature with trends that make sense while still retaining the open door through which good writers can find appreciative readers.

H-M Brown
Jul 20, 05:30pm

Interesting Article.

Tin House: http://www.tinhouse.com/all_news.htm

A few of the reactions in favor of Tin House, especially StaceyV:
http://www.mediabistro.com/galleycat/lit_journals/tin_house_to_require_bookstore_receipt_for_unsolicited_manuscripts_166567.asp

And JonH's response to Mr. Fauth:
http://htmlgiant.com/submissions/37068/

StacyV and JonH clearly are not writers because they have no idea what we all go through just to first draft our Written works of any length. Let alone spending much longer Second and Third drafting to write a damn good and respectable novel.

Tin House has no respect for us writers, and to sit there and tell us prospective authors to buy a book at a bookstore to support a bookstore, while at the same time having their published works on sale in Amazon is a hypocritical slap in the face.

And to make us writers prove our worth as writers by buying a book in a bookstore, rather than the merits of our hard work writing our stories, is a blatent insult. Not just to us young generations of writers, but to older generations who had double the work load of writing their stories, compare to us with the technoglogy we got today to write our stories.

Laura Miller: http://www.salon.com/books/laura_miller/2010/06/22/slush

Laura Miller not only sounds paranoid, but really understimates and is very pretentious of how readers think. Just because a few junior editors suffered 'fatigue' does not mean the average reader, or the hardcore reader, will suffer the same way. In fact, a reader who picks up a crappy book and knows its crappy, will relay that to all his buddies online, and through word of mouth in the real world, thus ending the crappy written books quest to be a Number One bestseller. If the author of said crappy book wonders why, he only has to look at himself for not making the effort to make the book better written.

As for the slush pile, from what I could understand what the Blogger is saying in Hanasiana, is to remove the middle man (aka Slush Pile) altogether and for Publishers to just deal with us writers directly.

I would like that, rather than some random Junior Editor, who probably is still learning or in training about recognizing the fine points of storytelling and editing, to decide the fate of my novels.

BUT, is it really a good idea to get rid of the slush pile altogether?

I don't know.

After all readers are very subjective and opinionated with what they read from us, whether poorly written or well written.

Susan Gibb
Jul 21, 08:37am

There is a terrific article by Roxanne Gay at HTML that gives a heart back to a good portion of the editors: http://htmlgiant.com/mean/enough-is-enough-the-slushpile-is-not-the-enemy/#more-38355

Sam Rasnake
Jul 21, 10:06am

Part of all the debate - if that's the right term - makes me understand why Dickinson simply chose to write for herself and her art only - and forget any sense of public need.

If she had submitted her work on a grand scale, she would have, no doubt, eventually conformed to a reader's/public's view of what was expected of her. That's one of the main reasons she didn't. She refused to alter her art to any standard other than its own – not even her standard.

I have to realize that to send out my work to journals and presses - even in finding the works and manuscripts accepted - and to post them on/to blogs or writing forums, making them available to public view - no matter how limited - is, at least in part, an attempt to conform. Maybe I want others to read. Maybe that’s one of the reasons I write.

I don't believe that's necessarily all bad - but it is what it is.

Matt Dennison
Jul 21, 11:07am

I'm inclined to think Mr. Hanas's approach would lead to the niceification of art, the never-ending high school popularity contest where only the bland-obvious is praised, accepted, promulgated, inter-bred with, because the author is, just, well... SO NICE!!

James Lloyd Davis
Jul 21, 11:50am

Matt, you may have stumbled on to something there. It could very well be why the New Yorker rejects all my fiction. I've been called many things over the years, but never "Nice."

I'm going to spend the next hour or so in front of a mirror, practicing, cultivating the winning smile of a very nice literary guy.

I'll write very nice stories about very nice, sensitive, highly educated people in doctoral programs who somehow prevail, though heartbroken and wronged in a not-so-nice world where even the ladies slingin' java at Starbucks can be cruel and indifferent.

Oh, wait... was that sarcasm? Nice people aren't sarcastic, are they? It's not easy to be a nice writer in America. Maybe I should become an expatriate American artist in Alberta and write vague, vacuously metaphorical prairie fiction in dialect. Eh?

Matt Dennison
Jul 21, 01:17pm

Don't forget wistfulness (preferably mild) and the discomfiting realization that one should have got the latte after all.

James Lloyd Davis
Jul 21, 02:11pm

"She was rude, Chelsea." Mark said.

His mildly wistful discomfiture suddenly surfaced, teased the wrinkle of his pleasant smile away from the corners of his gentle mouth and clouded his sensitive blue eyes. She'd never seen him this way.

"She was sooo damned rude I forgot that I wanted the latte. Now, I'm stuck with the bitter aftertaste of those damned arabica beans."

"Oh, Mark. You said the 'd' word."

(I think I have the rhythm now. Thanks, Matt.)

H-M Brown
Jul 21, 03:02pm

Susan, that was a great article you linked up. It appears that with regards to the slushpile there are two factors involved:

1) People who work on the slushpile are whiny and should not be working in that profession if they don't like it.

2) Writers like me should be glad that there is a slush pile. (Yes after reading that article I recant my statement to get rid of Slush Pile.)

After all, if all we writers get are praises and no heavy handed criticism, we writers will never learn what we did wrong and cheat are readers of well told and well written stories.

Christopher Allen
Jul 21, 05:18pm

I've been dealing with the issue of "previously published" for the last few weeks--actually not so much "previously" published as "posted" on fictionaut.

As several of you know, I made the mistake of posting on fictionaut the entire text of a story that won a contest recently. The editor of the ezine was furious.

Since then I've pulled a few of my stories off fictionaut that are up elsewhere.

I haven't had time to read the links in this thread, but fictionaut (or possibly only I) could benefit from some ground rules about what is considered published. I didn't think posting on fictionaut was considered published. I was mortified when I got the email from The Smoking Poet.

H-M Brown
Jul 21, 06:29pm

Contests from ezines are the not the same as Publishing to a House.

Contests are based on fair competition and feel posting on the Internet is a cheat. Publishing Houses are based on Economics and they don't really see the internet as a viable "Publishing" house. Those that do recognize it, are usually Small Print Presses or Poetry Publishers and even those are a minute few.

I had no problem submitting my Short Story "The First Run", which is posted here on Fictionaut, to Asimov's Magazine, because they don't consider Fictionaut a "Publishing" site. I even told them that I was a member and they still reviewed by work with no problem.

The Submission Guidelines of many Publishing Houses big or small will lay out what they consider "Published" or not.

And if they don't point out in their Submission Guidelines that they consider the Internet a "Publishing" Entity and reject a work on those grounds, then they are a dishonest House.

There are Editors of Small Press House who are members here, just drop them a line and ask what their Guidleines are regarding Posting on Fictionaut and getting Published. You'll be surprised how many have no problem with that.

There are also tons of topics about this throughout this year regarding "Publishing" on Fictionaut. It will take some time ot find them though.

Sam Rasnake
Jul 21, 07:56pm

If I remember correctly, Christopher, you posted your story after it had won. Most likely Zinta Aistars problem with your posting it after it won was that it drew readers away from The Smoking Poet – and as write, you don’t want that to happen. Now that's of course one view. One might also assume that your posting of the story here would cause readers to go to The Smoking Poet to read more. It’s a toss up, but Smoking Poet’s editorial guidelines are their guidelines. It doesn’t really matter what readers or even writers whose work is accepted there feel about it.

Once a piece has been published - print or online ... and I see no difference between the two - a writer should wait a week or so or even longer before posting the work here at Fictionaut. - Unless, of course, the venue has a specific guideline.

For example, I've had work published/posted - whatever term anyone would want to use - at the Dead Mule School of Southern Literature. The editor there - Helen Losse - didn't mind if accepted work had been posted at a personal blog or website ... that would include a site such as Fictionaut - but she asked that while the Dead Mule issue was live online that the work be removed from all those personal sites.

This will vary from venue to venue and format to format, but H-M is right, always check the venue's guidelines.

Sam Rasnake
Jul 21, 07:58pm

And, I should have said... "Red Toy Soldier" is a magnificent story and deserved to win Smoking Poet's story contest.

Jürgen Fauth
Jul 23, 11:27am

Sorry you ran into trouble with the editors at the Smoking Poet, Christoper. As ground rules go, it's really not up to us at Fictionaut to establish them -- every editor is going to have a different point of view. If you search the forums, you'll find an old discussion where we listed magazines that did not mind work being published here, and many stories have been picked up after being posted on Fictionaut.

Some editors have asked that stories that appeared here first be taken down while they're in the current issue of their magazine. Some don't mind because it attracts additional attention. Either way, rights usual revert to you upon publication, so if you choose to, you're generally free to repost the story here after it's been published elsewhere.

This is very much an evolving debate, so our stance is to give writers as much flexibility as possible. You can post a story, delete it, or set it to private at any time (that way, you keep your comments and faves, and you can make it public again later.) But obviously, as others have said, you'll want to make sure that whatever you do is ok with the editors you're working with.

Sam Rasnake
Jul 23, 05:31pm

Great point, Jürgen. I do like the freedom here at Fictionaut in what and how we post work. And especially the contact base that's here. Very helpful to writers and editors.

Elizabeth Hegwood
Jul 23, 06:51pm

I just caught up on this entire thread. Congrats to everyone's past and current good news! Looking forward to hearing more good news from you all.

Elizabeth Hegwood
Jul 24, 03:54pm

wait a sec... that was supposed to appear on the Send Us Your News thread. Sorry.

Matt Dennison
Jul 24, 03:57pm

NO SOUP FOR YOU!

Elizabeth Hegwood
Jul 24, 06:54pm

lol

oh, lord, don't get me quoting, the thread'll deteriorate quickly...

Christopher Allen
Jul 25, 04:28am

Hi, Jürgen and Sam. Thank you for responding. I didn't know about the "Private" feature at the time this happened. If I had taken the time to familiarize myself with the feature, I could have prevented the situation altogether. Live and learn. And I could have kept the faves.

Sam, thank you for the compliment. Always good to hear. :)
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