Forum / I love this guy

• 
  Sally Houtman

  Jul 12, 01:36am

  Max Cryer - author of

  "Curious English Words and Phrases: The Truth Behind the Expressions."

  "Who Said That First?: The Curious Origins of Common Words and Phrases "

  and many other fascinating books.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgGNCcGZMbA

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P1uRWSlsgw

  (I hope these videos aren't restricted to certain countries.)

  Check him out, though. I get to listen to his weekly radio show. It's addictive.

• 
  whatwouldbukowskido

  Jul 12, 01:49am

  Interesting about Valentine's Day being on Feb. 14 because that's the day the birds mate(?).

  Without cheating, do you know the actual meaning of "beyond the pale"?

• 
  Sally Houtman

  Jul 12, 01:53am

  Well actually...I do.

  And I learned it from one of his radio programs!

  It has something to do with measurement, of plots of land, I think. Something to do with stakes and ropes being used, the stakes being called 'pales.'

  So 'beyond the pale' meaning, outside the boundary.

• 
  whatwouldbukowskido

  Jul 12, 02:04am

  You are allowed to live another day...

  ;-)

  Actually, I think your understanding of the phrase is tighter than mine, which was, simply: Beyond the fence (from me Irish/Harvard-trained English prof).

  I can see where "pale" would/could (obviously) imply "stake" as in "impaled."

• 
  Sally Houtman

  Jul 12, 02:29am

  Thank Max Cryer.

  I honestly don't know how he retains all that detailed information. He takes calls for a couple hours every Saturday where folks call in and ask the origins of random phrases, etc. and he *immediately* answers with names, dates, and all pertinent historical references.

  The man is brilliant.

• 
  Letitia Coyne

  Jul 12, 02:48am

  Wooden fences are still called paling fences or just palings.

  Lxx

• 
  whatwouldbukowskido

  Jul 12, 03:11am

  "Wooden fences are still called paling fences or just palings."

  But to Amurican chillren, "beyond the pale" has always implied a sense of...beyond the receding, unknowable, distant, hard to make out, indistinct, cloud-like...

  As one's vision goes from the distinct to the far-off to the pale...

  If he (who *was* he?) had simply said: Beyond the fence...

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  But does this Marvelous Max Cryer know the meaning of "Pig-in-a-Peke"?

  ;-)

• 
  whatwouldbukowskido

  Jul 12, 03:18am

  POKE!

• 
  Sally Houtman

  Jul 12, 03:25am

  I believe he does. Seems I recall that being discussed, but it was quite a long time ago and I don't recall the explanation. Enlighten us - do *you* know?

• 
  whatwouldbukowskido

  Jul 12, 03:34am

  NO ONE KNOWS THE ORIGONS OF PIG-IN-A-POKE!!

  IT EXISTS BEYOND OUR COMPREHENSION!

• 
  Sally Houtman

  Jul 12, 03:41am

  It is, in other words, beyond the pale.

  :)

  I think the discussion I recalled actually had to do with the origins of the term 'piggy bank' (from the word 'pyg' a type of clay the banks were made from way back when).

  Not 'pig in a poke' which can neither be explained nor comprehended by mere mortals.

  But I believe Mr Cryer knows...

• 
  Sally Houtman

  Jul 12, 04:07am

  From Wikipedia:

  "The idioms pig in a poke and sell a pup (or buy a pup) refer to a confidence trick originating in the Late Middle Ages, when meat was scarce, but cats and dogs (puppies) were not.[1][2][3] The idiom pig in a poke can also simply refer to someone buying a low-quality pig in a bag because he or she did not carefully check what was in the bag.[4]

  The scheme entailed the sale of a suckling pig in a poke (bag). The bag would actually contain a cat or dog (substantially less valuable as a source of meat), which was sold to the victim in an unopened bag. The French idiom acheter (un) chat en poche (to buy a cat in a bag) refers to an actual sale of this nature, as do many European equivalents, while the English expression refers to the appearance of the trick.[5]"

  "A poke is a sack or bag. It has a French origin as 'poque' and, like several other French words, its diminutive is formed by adding 'ette' or 'et'—hence 'pocket' began life with the meaning 'small bag'."

• 
  whatwouldbukowskido

  Jul 12, 04:18am

  "'piggy bank' (from the word 'pyg' a type of clay the banks were made from way back when)."

  Now THAT'S inneresting, from "pyg" to "pig" to "piggy bank," the big white porcelain thing in your older brother's room.

• 
  whatwouldbukowskido

  Jul 12, 04:39pm

  Two interesting phrases and their origins:

  "Get his goat"

  Thoroughbred horses used for racing are often very high strung. As a result, they do not travel well. After experimentation, it was found that if there was something constant from place to place the horse would stay calm, and therefore perform better in a race. What worked best? A goat.

  So if you wanted to try to ensure that a particular horse did not race at his best, what would you do? Steal his goat!

  Today this phrase is still used to imply that something (or someone) has made you angry and upset.

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  "Make your nut"

  Back to old England again for the origination of this phrase. There were gypsy circuses that would travel the country, entertaining and probably stealing from the townspeople. Before the city fathers would allow them to set up camp, they would come to an arrangement as to how much the circus would pay the city for the privilege of setting up. Once this amount was agreed upon, the city fathers would take the large nut that secured one of the wagon wheels on the biggest circus wagon.

  Until the circus was able to pay the amount, they would not get their nut back, and therefore would not be able to leave town. This was how the city fathers ensured that they got what was agreed to, rather than seeing the circus skip town in the middle of the night.

  Today this phrase is used when discussing whether or not there is enough cash coming in to pay your bills.

• 
  Sally Houtman

  Jul 12, 09:56pm

  I confess I have *never* heard the phrase 'make your nut."

  Interesting stories.

• 
  Sally Houtman

  Jul 13, 02:30am

  Now *here's* an interesting one:

  'Kick the bucket'

  "This evocative phrase meaning to die is of uncertain etymology. The most likely explanation is that it does not refer to a washing tub or pail, the sense of bucket that most of us are familiar with. Instead, it comes from another sense of bucket meaning a yoke or beam from which something can be hung. The imagery evoked by the phrase is that of an animal being hung up for slaughter, kicking the beam from which it is suspended in its death throes.

  This sense of bucket probably comes from the Old French buquet, meaning a trébuchet or balance. "

• 
  Sally Houtman

  Jul 13, 02:46am

  And a rather surprising one:

  'Pull the wool over one's eyes'

  "The metaphor behind this phrase is quite straightforward, but not readily apparent today. The wool refers to a powdered wig. To pull the wool down over a man’s eyes is to temporarily blind him. The phrase is an Americanism and variants include the use of the verbs to draw and to spread, in addition to pull. From the Jamestown Journal (N.Y.) of 24 April 1839:

  That lawyer has been trying to spread the wool over your eyes."

• 
  Sally Houtman

  Jul 13, 02:49am

  'Reading the Riot Act' -

  "Britain’s Riot Act of 1715 stated that when 12 or more people were engaged in a riot, any magistrates on hand could command them to disperse. Anyone not obeying the command could be arrested for a felony. So reading the riot act is a public warning of dire consequences if certain behavior is to continue. "

• 
  whatwouldbukowskido

  Jul 13, 04:16pm

  Cat Got Your Tongue?
  Meaning: Something said when a person is at a loss for words
  History: There are two possible sources for this common saying. The first refers to the cat-o’-nine-tails – a whip used by the English Navy for flogging. The whip caused so much pain that the victims were left speechless. The second refers to the practice of cutting out the tongues of liars and blasphemers and feeding them to cats.

  Caught Red-Handed
  Meaning: To be caught doing something wrong
  History: This saying originated because of a law. If someone butchered an animal that didn’t belong to him, he had to be caught with the animal’s blood on his hands to be convicted. Being caught with freshly cut meat did not make the person guilty.

  Don’t Throw the Baby Out with the Bathwater
  Meaning: Hang on to valuable things when getting rid of unnecessary things
  Hisory: During the 1500s, most people bathed once a year. Even when they did bathe, the entire family used the same tubful of water. The man of the house bathed first, followed by other males, then females, and finally the babies. You can imagine how thick and cloudy the water became by that time, so the infants’ mothers had to take care not to throw them out with the bathwater when they emptied the tub.

  Eat Humble Pie
  Meaning: Making an apology and suffering humiliation along with it
  History: During the Middle Ages, the lord of a manor would hold a feast after hunting. He would receive the finest cut of meat at the feast, but those of a lower standing were served a pie filled with the entrails and innards, known as “umbles.” Therefore, receiving “umble pie” was considered humiliating because it informed others in attendance of the guest’s lower status.

  Give the Cold Shoulder
  Meaning: A rude way of telling someone he isn’t welcome
  History: Although giving someone the cold shoulder today is considered rude, it was actually regarded as a polite gesture in medieval England. After a feast, the host would let his guests know it was time to leave by giving them a cold piece of meat from the shoulder of beef, mutton, or pork.

  Go the Whole 9 Yards
  Meaning: To try one’s best
  History: World War II Fighter pilots received a 9-yard chain of ammunition. Therefore, when a pilot used all of his ammunition on one target, he gave it “the whole 9 yards.”

  Jaywalker
  Meaning: One who crosses the street in a reckless or illegal manner
  History: Jay birds that traveled outside of the forest into urban areas often became confused and unaware of the potential dangers in the city – like traffic. Amused by their erratic behavior, people began using the term “Jaywalker” to describe someone who crossed the street irresponsibly.

  Kick the Bucket
  Meaning: To die
  History: When a cow was killed at a slaughterhouse, a bucket was placed under it while it was positioned on a pulley. Sometimes the animal’s legs would kick during the adjustment of the rope and it would literally kick the bucket before being killed.

  Saved by the Bell
  Meaning: Rescued from an unwanted situation
  History: As scary as it sounds, being buried alive was once a common occurrence. People who feared succumbing to such a fate were buried in special coffins that connected to a bell above ground. At night, guards listened for any bells in case they had to dig up a living person and save them “by the bell.”

  Spill the Beans
  Meaning: To reveal a secret
  History: In Ancient Greece, beans were used to vote for candidates entering various organizations. One container for each candidate was set out before the group members, who would place a white bean in the container if they approved of the candidate and a black bean if they did not. Sometimes a clumsy voter would accidentally knock over the jar, revealing all of the beans and allowing everyone to see the otherwise confidential votes.

  Waking Up on the Wrong Side of the Bed
  Meaning: Waking up in a bad mood
  History: The left side of the body or anything having to do with the left was often associated considered sinister. To ward off evil, innkeepers made sure the left side of the bed was pushed against a wall, so guests had no other option but to get up on the right side of the bed.

• 
  Sally Houtman

  Jul 13, 10:59pm

  Okay, I give up!

  I say uncle!

  Well...speaking of which...

  It seems that while "crying uncle" is today regarded as an Americanism, its origins go all the way back to the Roman Empire. Roman children, when beset by a bully, would be forced to say "Patrue, mi Patruissimo," or "Uncle, my best Uncle," in order to surrender and be freed.

  As to exactly why bullies force their victims to "cry uncle," opinions vary. It may be that the ritual is simply a way of making the victim call out for help from a grownup, thus proving his or her helplessness. Alternatively, it may have started as a way of forcing the victim to grant the bully a title of respect -- in Roman times, your father's brother was accorded nearly the same power and status as your father. The form of "uncle" used in the Latin phrase ("patrue") tends to support this theory, inasmuch as it specifically denoted your paternal uncle, as opposed to the brother of your mother ("avunculus"), who occupied a somewhat lower rung in patrilineal Roman society.

• 
  Letitia Coyne

  Jul 16, 05:57am

  'Uncle, my best uncle.'

  I know I give up the love of life any time Robin Williams exhorts boys to cry 'captain, my captain'. I don't know the Latin for that.

  Did Walt Whitman speak Latin?

  Does it matter?

  I give up.

  Lxx

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