Forum / Use of song lyrics in fiction

James Lloyd Davis
May 22, 12:34pm

This is something I've considered but never pursued previously. In the use of song lyrics, specifically American, to what extent can you include them in a work of fiction without permission from the songwriter, if at all? I am talking about those lyrics which are not in the public domain.

To be specific, I want to use two stanzas of the lyrics from "On Broadway" as performed by George Benson.

Has anyone had experience with the legal issues and knows the parameters of what is permitted?

I suppose I could contact EMI or the artist's representative, but if it's not necessary, life would be so much simpler.

Matt Dennison
May 22, 07:56pm

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8231

James Lloyd Davis
May 22, 09:40pm

This is helpful, Matt, thanks.

Sam Rasnake
May 22, 11:24pm

Fascinating discussion at the link, Matt.

Matt Dennison
May 22, 11:39pm

Makes it sound like something you want to AVOID AT ALL POSSIBLE COSTS!

But like the one guy said about having it be known that the character is humming/singing a certain tune might be just as effective (possibly more so) as having the actual words on the page.

James Lloyd Davis
May 23, 07:13am

The idea that so many people think it should be avoided makes it all the more attractive. I hate to be cryptic, but in this case I think the identification that the song will bring will add something to the story, something no other allusion or reference could quite achieve.

Besides that, popular music has such profound influence and connection to the ethos of an era, that the idea of eliminating them from the palette you can use to recreate it seems absolutely ... what's the word ... it's like saying, "Mr. Warhol, I wouldn't want to be painting that soup can if I was you. Dreadful problems with trademarks and all, eh? How about ... just a plain old bowl of hot soup? A little steam rising, spoon off to the side? Generic, no logo, no fuss, no hassle. Wouldn't that be just as nice?"

I'll make the effort to get the permission. Thanks for the input.

Susan Tepper
May 23, 08:22am

Even "Happy Birthday" is copyrighted.

Writers beware! Permissions are nearly impossible to obtain unless you have a big book pubisher who is doing it through their legal department. It's best to make up your own song lyrics to avoid an expensive law suit.

Many years ago, Poets & Writers mag put out a free booklet about this sort of thing, warning writers of the legalities involved.
It's probably still available online thru their site

Cherise Wolas
Jun 07, 08:20am

The "fair use" doctrine allows the use of song lyrics without permission, if you use 200 words or less.

Susan Tepper
Jun 07, 12:17pm

Cherise, not to discredit you as a lawyer, but the fair use doctrine is complicated, and (rightly or wrongly) some writers have been sued when using song lyrics in their books without obtaining permissions.

How many writers can afford to represent themselves against a battalion of lawyers representing a music company?

This URL I posted might be helpful to some people who intend to use song lyrics.

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter1/1-b.html

Cherise Wolas
Jun 07, 12:24pm

Totally agree Susan.

Has nothing to do with me as a lawyer -- that info came directly to me via an editor at a prestigious online journal -- told to me in connection with a piece of my own. I believe the editor and journal when told they me they vetted this issue - as I am relying on it too!

Cherise Wolas
Jun 07, 12:26pm

Just to follow up - I would definitely seek permission before I used anyone else's material in, for example, a book that I was going to publish.

Susan Tepper
Jun 07, 12:44pm

Cherise, not just in books. But in stories, poems, and non-fiction published in print and online. Copyright law over the last few years has altered radically, and not to the writer's advantage.

Cherise Wolas
Jun 07, 01:38pm

Susan, I used book publishing just as an example, as I wrote "for example..." In my case, I am going to trust that the editor and the journal are clear on this issue.

Ann Bogle
Jun 07, 01:47pm

At Women Writers: a Zine, we want to publish two chapters of Cherise's novel-in-progress; one of the chapters quotes lyrics from a song readers at Fictionaut felt enhanced our understanding of the story. I wrote to Kim Wells, publisher of the magazine (I am the fiction editor) founded in 1998. Since 2007, 3.5 million visitors have been to the website. She told me that fair use covers up to 200 words of lyrics. I read at the Stanford link Susan posted and wasn't able to find a reference to attributed lyrics within works of fiction. I have read it is permissable to use one poem from a work, when credit is given.

Rock musicians, in particular, have brought copyright to public attention. As a group they are more likely to believe they require payment for their work and reproductons of their work. Sample law is strict and covers sub-seconds of music. Often the music the artists argue they are protecting was produced not by a musician but by a machine. It's full of irony. I know someone who lifted lyrics from one of my short stories who sued another band under sample law and won.

George LaCas
Jun 07, 05:40pm

Another link concerning this issue, from the MPA.

http://mpa.org/copyright_resource_center/forms

Susan Tepper
Jun 07, 06:02pm

George, this is a good link. I would say #8 tells it straight--

Susan Tepper
Jun 07, 06:03pm

That is #8 under: Frequently Asked Questions

Ann Bogle
Jun 07, 08:38pm

#8 under FAQ: "What do I do if I want permission to reprint portions of a work in my thesis, book, or journal article?"

I wrote, "[I] was not able to find a reference to attributed lyrics within works of fiction."

It seems perfectly natural for a fictional character to think of a song we think of or know yet, as Susan would argue, it is copyright infringement to refer to that music in fiction without express permission. I've heard numerous cover songs over the years, heard people sing along in the car or in the shower. I can't tell from these arugments whether those would be fair use.

I wrote in a story "'No-ah buddy duz it bed-der' as Carly Simon would with odd intonation." I wrote in another story, "When Tom Petty counts squarely, he says 'foe.'"

Since I didn't seek permission from their publishers, these references might seem actionable. No publisher raised the topic. What I am referring to in those tiny passages is voice. I don't know if written representations of voice are protected.

I see I shifted the topic (above) to suing a rock 'n roll artist for lifting words and form from a short story to write his lyrics!

Short story writers and poets seem not to consider getting paid for a fragment of their utterance, let alone for a form they invented or for approximations of their voice. They would be surprised to be paid for a work at all.

I can certainly think of the times when I felt I had been copied by another writer without what I call "fiction attribution."

It is a suspicion based on available information and timing. A friend told me to be flattered when that happens, but I feel more had, especialy since derivative work often fares better than original work. I don't know why that is.

James Lloyd Davis
Jun 07, 09:55pm

The debate is ongoing, I see, and I love that we are finally getting down to specifics. Song lyrics are the perfect reference points for time, in terms of placement within a decade and, very often, for emotions that are shared universally, at least in some cases. To remove them from the author's tool box seems such a waste.

My reason for bringing this up and initiating the thread was a short story of mine, which includes a shooting in a west Texas bar. It seemed appropriate that the juke box would be playing a song, so the essential elements of the action were placed in time with and interspersed with lyrics from a widely recognizable country and western song that, oddly enough, was not chosen with the idea that it would relate to the shooting, but when I read what I'd written, it did ... and perfectly.

Without those lyrics, this story would have but a fraction of the impact.

I would not call it plagiarism to use those lyrics, since, as I've said before, popular culture becomes as much a part of the zeitgeist's fabric as do the facts of history, but I would certainly try to obtain permission before doing so. If I've learned anything in life, it's that logic and justice reside on one side of the blind lady's scale, and the law and money sit firmly and heavily on the other.

Regardless, in this one instance, if unable to get permission, I would go ahead and take a chance anyway, because I believe in what I've written. That, to my way of thinking, is the artist's right and responsibility in a free society. Right now, as I'm reading here, people who may believe that it's right to use lyrics in fiction, and whose work would possibly benefit from the practice, might not do so because of possible litigation.

Of course, that may all be moot, since writers seldom have the final say on the final version of a published work.

James Lloyd Davis
Jun 07, 10:01pm

In fact, there are many instances where I would like to use song lyrics, such as the story I cited when I started this thread, the one I just mentioned, and the novel I am currently working on. All use song lyrics to some degree, as mere props, yes, but important ones. I'd hate to give that up. In fact ... (Soap box syndrome ... never mind. I'll sit down over here.)

Susan Tepper
Jun 08, 07:57am

Everyone who thinks they might go ahead and use song lyrics should consult with an attorney specializing in copyright law. That's it for me-- I rest my case (as Perry Mason used to say)

Ann Bogle
Jun 08, 08:49am

Carol Novack, publisher of Mad Hatters' Review and former criminal att'y in NYC had this to say: "at literary magazines, the author hopes to gain nothing monetarily from the work of fiction; to quote lyrics briefly in a story is acceptable use."

Reading at one of the links above indicated as much.

I regard writing in this context as a hobby for which there is no hope or expectation of payment. I'd be surprised if you could find an entertainment lawyer versed in literary internet copyright "law" (there seems to be ongoing change in the area of copyright on the internet) who would advise unpaid writers and poets for a fee.

Susan is also talking about hiring a copyright lawyer before quoting a song in a school paper (#8 FAQ). We'll have to agree not to agree there.

No one has addressed the issue I mention of attribution; there is a distinction between attributing work and not attributing it.

James Lloyd Davis
Jun 08, 10:14am

Good point, Ann ... attribution. Thanks for that.

Susan Tepper
Jun 08, 10:42am

ASCAP owns all the music. Commercial publishers PAY to obtain rights to reprint song lyrics.
That's it in a nutshell

Susan Tepper
Jun 08, 11:39am

Writer's Digest Link to questions re song lyrics:

Writer's Digest Questions and Quandaries
blog.writersdigest.com/.../Can+I+Use+Song+Lyrics+In+My+Manuscript.aspx - Cached - Similar

Matt Dennison
Jun 08, 12:23pm

But if there's no money worth going after...

Susan Tepper
Jun 08, 12:34pm

Matt,
It belongs to them and they don't want to share with us-- unless we pay. And maybe not even then...
This Writers Digest link spells it out quite clearly

Ann Bogle
Jun 08, 01:19pm

Susan, I googled the source you mention since the link didn't work. Here's the link:

http://blog.writersdigest.com/qq/Can+I+Use+Song+Lyrics+In+My+Manuscript.aspx

This thread causes me to realize how much I wish that poets and short story writers were similarly fierce about protecting their work from various kinds of infringement, were more linked by unions, etc. Musicians have persuaded us their work has value. It's good to remember that titles are not copyrighted.

Matt Dennison
Jun 08, 01:28pm

So you could just say your character is walking down the street humming "Yesterday."

That'd be the equivalent of saying he bought Tide laundry detergent, right?

Title = Brand name

?

Susan Tepper
Jun 08, 01:57pm

Ann, thanks for re-posting the link.

Matt, Yes, you can say the character is humming Yesterday.

And as Ann has written: TITLES are not copyrighted

Ann Bogle
Sep 01, 04:11pm

[Posted 9/1/10 at Women's Poetry Listserv.]

Here is Woody Guthrie on topics that concern us all:

"This song is Copyrighted in U.S., under Seal of Copyright # 154085, for a period of 28 years, and anybody caught singin' it without our permission, will be mighty good friends of ourn, cause we don't give a dern. Publish it. Write it. Sing it. Swing to it. Yodel it. We wrote it, that's all we wanted to do."

Bill Yarrow
Sep 01, 07:56pm

Great thread!

In terms of fair use--beware! You cannot use even use one still of a film that is not in public domain!
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