Forum / Stats

M.H.
May 19, 08:50pm

Are stats relevant to literary magazine editors? How do you use them? What search terms consistently pop up? Do stats influence your decision to publish? Why or Why not? I'd love to hear your thoughts!

Ann Bogle
May 19, 11:05pm

Marcelle, I do not have direct access to stats at Mad Hatters' Review, but I do ask the webmistress for stats, especially after a new issue has come out. I like to know how many hits the day and week after release. I've put your questions to our publisher -- hope to get his response.

M.H.
May 19, 11:55pm

Hi Ann,
Thanks for responding to this post. I've been interested in finding more about stats for a while, specifically as it relates to transparency and promotion.
Cheers,
M

W.F. Lantry
May 20, 06:42am

This is one of the most important questions around, and I wish editors were more forthcoming with sending stats to their authors. They all have direct or indirect access to them, but how often do we see them?

Despite what some see as a 'prestige factor' to publishing in some traditional print journals, we've all seen unopened boxes of journals next to an editor's desk. And there's little point in print journals that go unread. That doesn't happen with online journals. Every time I push an online editor to actually supply numbers, it turns out they're in the thousands, or better (except, of course, PDF only journals, but that's a different question). So why aren't more editors forthcoming with these numbers? It really would help to know...

Best,

Bill

M.H.
May 20, 04:25pm

Hi Bill,
I agree. Perhaps the reason editors aren't more forthcoming is because they're not sure what to make of the numbers - what they mean in terms of audience reach, author draw etc.?
I posted this on Facebook and thus far it's crickets...
Cheers,
Marcelle

Marcus Speh
May 20, 04:41pm

Most editors probably don't understand stats, which is understandable though probably unnecessary. Your webmaster can install Google Analytics with both hands tied up; there is any amount of information on the web regarding SEO (because this is how most people on the web make their money); last resort: my students created a learning module a few years ago (most of which is still relevant and true): check out http://google.birkenkrahe.com — cheers!

M.H.
May 20, 06:37pm

Thanks Marcus. Is online literature doomed if SEO rules the web?

Marcus Speh
May 20, 08:38pm

Marcelle, the presence of SEO means in the first place that editors need to understand how to read and filter the true signals. SEO increases the tool box for doing this so I don't think it's going to kill anyone or anything. The noise of the swelling global conversation is surely going to increase—it won't get any easier to hear an individual voice in it than it ever was. But I believe a certain non-mechanistic, non-technological magic acts on behalf of work of the highest quality which will, against the known laws of physics, guarantee that this work is found by those who need to find it.

David Ackley
May 21, 02:32am

Those who don't know what is SEO are certainly doomed to be ruled by it: So quick somebody, what the hell is SEO?

W.F. Lantry
May 21, 02:33pm

SEO = Search engine optimization. Mostly, it's a method of including "meta-tags" or metadata into the parts of webpages that 'spiders' (in other words, the way search engines crawl across and index the web) can see but humans don't.

If you're curious, go to any of the sites you normally read, and click the 'view source' tab in your browser (or press ctrl-U). Now look at the top of the page. If you know how to read code, you'll find all sorts of embedded text, keywords, etc. Savvy people put all that in there as search engine bait.

James Lloyd Davis
May 21, 03:12pm

It's interesting that one reaction to the injection of SEO (essentially a marketing tool) would endanger online literature.

As though the editors of online journals will suddenly shift their focus of content to the aim and satisfaction of 'more beneficial demographics.' Since there seems to be little or no profit motive for most of those who initiate and tend to these journals (indeed, no aspirations for profit), I doubt that will ever be an issue.

However, if any literary journal ever decided to provide a monetary incentive to prospective authors (i.e. payment for content... it's a concept), it would certainly be the proper tool to use.

In the meantime, knowledge and use of such tools can also be a fine way to increase readership through manipulation of search engines to that advantage, so when a reader Googles for something of interest, he or she is more likely to land at your journal. Whether or not you are motivated by profit, an editor must surely believe that optimal exposure is beneficial to both the author and the journal, so what's the harm?

M.H.
May 21, 04:18pm

Thanks Bill for your succinct def. of SEO and James for your thoughts. I guess I was thinking about how fiction seems to defy SEO logic.

James Lloyd Davis
May 21, 06:10pm

Marcelle, I'm thinking that literary journals could probably enhance readership with peripheral articles and such... interviews, book reviews (not just novels or biographies, but chapbook reviews) reviews of writing on the net, features that might enhance reader attraction. There should be more to a literary journal than just exposure for a small clique of like minded authors. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but if you want to give your friends exposure, you have to find ways to broaden the appeal to the journal itself.

Which only brings it back to stats, which is a good tool for reading the effect after the publication. What worked, what didn't. What did people read, what did they merely 'flash on.' SEO tools help you to determine specifics.

What if your journal had an interview with, say, a writer on the New York Times list? The Google traffic alone would boost exposure when fans of that author go to Google, people who might never think to look for the likes of us.

Something to think about. I do and I'm not an editor, but when I look for a journal to place my work, I see what's available for a good fit and use the same tools readers might use to find a worthwhile story they might like to read. To publish a journal online, to publish anything online, and ignore the value of SEO might be a mistake.

David Ackley
May 21, 06:48pm

Thanks, Bill, I appreciated the definition also, though I was crept out a bit by the "Spiders," part which reminded me of "The Matrix."

RW Spryszak
May 21, 11:03pm

The stats we have for Thrice Fiction are relevant enough, though there's a complex twist to that.

In the first place I'm lucky to have an internet-savvy co-founder who does our artwork and also takes care of our internet presence. So the numbers I'm going to tell you are real. They are astonishing and neither of us know what to make of them, but real.

As of this week we have had almost 4000 downloads of the spring Thrice issue (#4). These are clean downloads, all going through to unique ISPs. Neither Dave or I understand where it is coming from. It is beyond our expectations and he has gone in to query these results more than once.

So I take the 3800+ readers as a great compliment.

However...

I haven't heard one thing... not one word to the good or bad... about the issue itself. No one has touted it and no one has panned it. Nobody has said anything. And this, more than the mystery of the amount of readers, is almost debilitating to me.

I felt, going in, that issue 4 of our zine was quite possibly the best collection of material I'd ever seen in a "literary" magazine that is as outside the mainstream as Thrice. I was bursting with pride about the writers we'd collected and the stuff we were going to show our readers.

And... nothing. Nobody said a word. So... like... I'm ecstatic about the 4000 readers, but mystified about the silence.

So the answer maybe is; the audience number is a good thing, but I'd like to know somebody is actually READING it.

Ann Bogle
May 22, 02:28am

Thanks, Bob, for the update. 4,000 is super. I haven't heard word about the issue, either. Except Claffey wrote to me that he liked my long story. (Thanks, Claffey.) I like his stories, too. And I wrote to aND.

M.H.
May 22, 03:16am

Thanks RW for sharing your stats for Thrice Fiction...very interesting, indeed.

Marcus Speh
May 22, 08:02am

@Bob I've read the issue #4 and I thought it was fantastic not only because of the quality of the pieces, but also as a production: well-balanced, beautiful art work, great presentation—which is why I submitted to the magazine apart from having something that I felt might pass keeping your criteria in mind. The truth is you got something quite unique on your hands, the fruit of your minds and your authors' writing.

I understand what you're saying about the "almost debilitating" effect of that silence, which is why I'm writing this post in the first place...however, my experience with "downloads" or readers on the net at large is that they're rarely outspoken and rarely comment.

My own main blog — http://marcusspeh.com — alone has had 550,000 hits in the past 18 months; when I post a new blog article, I get hundreds of new, real visitors per day who spend time on the site (that's important to distinguish bots from real people). I get re-tweeted and passed around a-plenty. But I almost have to carry people to comment, write something, and usually the people who comment are writers (= professionals) and/or people who also run blogs, and we comment upon each other's work regularly. People mostly comment when you say something nasty or highly opinionated; or when you ask a question they can engage with. I put lots of sweat into my posts, because I like writing them, and I still mostly get silence and quiet blips on the Google analytics screen.

Compared to comments, those downloads on the other hand are REAL (compared to a "hit") and will never be done by a machine (a spider, robot, spammer whatever) which means that 4000 people have looked at this issue, at least some of it and must have told others about it...

I think marketing takes a bloody extra head and body to do well. I often don't have the energy to even tout my own little horn, and I don't envy people who run magazines...without being a marketing expert, have you identified what kind of stats you like, i.e. what would "no silence" mean to you? I think with any kind of success, identifying indicators and then both looking for them and trying to increase them, is the key.

Examples for such indicators:
—page views of the magazine
—downloads and sales
—reviews elsewhere
—shares and stats via facebook ("insights" curve)
—twitter re-tweets
—emails from people who loved it
—increase in the number of submissions
—increase in the quality of submissions
—increase in the number of submissions from overseas
—being talked about on the radio
—being talked about in any other social media tools (there are hundreds with hundreds of millions of followers altogether: it's not hard to get to them; begin by installing a Wibya bar on your site)
—increases in the number of "Likes" of your Thrice page (with that many downloads, set yourself a target of 1000 for issue #5!)
—…[other things that e.g. Google Analytics will tell you: as a mag, you need GA; later, it may even make you money.]

I noticed you don't have a Twitter re-tweet button on your site, only a "Like" button for your page. Consider other buttons (discrete, not to destroy your beautiful page design); consider creating a Tumblr site to connect to the 18-28 year olds out there. Create a blog and invite other editors and writers to publish guest posts (kill author does this well: writers write about others published in the same issue). Approach 1 out of 10 editors active on Fictionaut if they wouldn't like to interview YOU...or simply ask your authors (#3, #4, #5...) for ideas on how to boost the feedback on the mag if that's what you'd like!

Sorry to barge in like this, but web stuff and social media are both my passion and my profession and have been for a long time, so I though I put my ideas out there. I teach this stuff to young people every term and it’s an awakening experience when the first 20-year old first-time blogger gets 1000 readers per month for their private thoughts (as long as they’ve written something interesting—good content is king).

The price of all this hubbub and feedback-seeking (and, inevitably, if you do it right, feedback-getting) is, of course, that your time goes into it, any amount of time. The upside is that if you get started and you continue to produce great content, the campaign will feed itself and you'll have to do less and less...until then forget about those afternoon naps…just as I’ve done just now…hope this helps. Keep up the good work, Bob!

James Claffey
May 22, 02:34pm

bob's magazine is pretty damned great. i was beyond thrilled to see the online version, and when the print issues arrived i was blown away by the attention to detail he'd taken in putting this magazine together. it is absolutely one of the most beautiful publications out there and deserves the widest possible audience.

M.H.
May 22, 03:20pm

Great discussion...Thanks Marcus for sharing your own stats (550,000!!) and advice. It converges nicely with your question about how the internet changes the way writers write. I also hope this thread encourages people to tout Thrice Fiction!
Cheers,
Marcelle

Marcus Speh
May 22, 04:09pm

@Marcelle, of those 550,000 hits, only about 35,000 (or close to 2,000 per month) were real identifiable visitors. When a site is on the net and findable, it attracts hit-related traffic from hundreds (truly, in my case about 300, I think) search bots, spiders and other link-hungry electronic insects (there should be a field of research "digital entomology"). My point was more about comments: I only generate about 30 comments per month. But then again, that's not too shabby for a one-man-teutonic-show hailing from Berlin.

Susan Tepper
May 22, 05:21pm

All this info on stats was eye-opening to me (as a very non-techy kind of person). But I would like to make a comment about the "silence" that surrounds all these hits, that Bob described as debilitating.

It "is debilitating." Anyone who puts out a book or magazine these days has heard that loud silence.

For instance, people will click 'like' on facebook but the majority will not comment. It's easy to click a like button. But what does it really mean? I think it's a device used by many as a way of gathering 'friends' for their own personal agenda (their upcoming book for instance).

'Real friends' will stop a moment, from time to time, and actually write something to you.

With the Monday Chat I always write: "share the LOVE with the writer on the F'naut comment box too" but there are way more fb like clicks than written comments on the F'naut page. It means so much more for the person being interviewed to get that personal comment.

These days everyone seems to be 'racing' to get nowhere (myself included) though I do leave a lot of comments around various sites.

Thrice is a GORGEOUS magazine which I cherish and re-read and look at frequently. It's so GORGEOUS in both its art and literary content that I bought extras for gifts. At 8 dollars a copy, it's a bargain and makes a fabulous gift that will not put you in the poorhouse.

BIG KUDOS to Bob and Dave for such a Magnificent Literary Magazine!!!

Susan Tepper
May 22, 05:21pm

All this info on stats was eye-opening to me (as a very non-techy kind of person). But I would like to make a comment about the "silence" that surrounds all these hits, that Bob described as debilitating.

It "is debilitating." Anyone who puts out a book or magazine these days has heard that loud silence.

For instance, people will click 'like' on facebook but the majority will not comment. It's easy to click a like button. But what does it really mean? I think it's a device used by many as a way of gathering 'friends' for their own personal agenda (their upcoming book for instance).

'Real friends' will stop a moment, from time to time, and actually write something to you.

With the Monday Chat I always write: "share the LOVE with the writer on the F'naut comment box too" but there are way more fb like clicks than written comments on the F'naut page. It means so much more for the person being interviewed to get that personal comment.

These days everyone seems to be 'racing' to get nowhere (myself included) though I do leave a lot of comments around various sites.

Thrice is a GORGEOUS magazine which I cherish and re-read and look at frequently. It's so GORGEOUS in both its art and literary content that I bought extras for gifts. At 8 dollars a copy, it's a bargain and makes a fabulous gift that will not put you in the poorhouse.

BIG KUDOS to Bob and Dave for such a Magnificent Literary Magazine!!!

M.H.
May 24, 09:05pm

Thanks all for responding to this post and for your insightful comments. Stats are an interesting barometer of the web's emergence and I feel we're still in the infancy of its potential...
Cheers!
Marcelle
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