Forum / Use of the Forum, an inquiry and a suggestion

James Lloyd Davis
Feb 28, 01:49pm

Not to criticize or complain, but the General Forum has become more of a bulletin board for announcements than a place where people exchange ideas and concepts in a public 'forum.'

Is the idea of discussion concerning 'craft' or the offer of concepts for an exchange of ideas a waste of time?

The obvious answer is that, given the preponderance of trend and usage, the General Forum has found its true and valued function here based upon the principles of marketing, i.e. 'What sells is what's important. It's all about what people really want. People don't want to discuss ideas. They want to advertise their wares, announce their successes.'

Well, okay, but if the Forum becomes cluttered with announcements and adverts, congratulations and kudos, doesn't that tend to discourage topical discussion? I've seen some really great debates and discussions here, but their occurance is getting rare while the torrent of publication announcements and obligatory kudos are everywhere abundant.

Personally, I think there's nothing wrong with advertisement, self-promotion or the congratulatory back and forth that attends it, but I really like the conceptual discussions that sometimes erupt here and would hate to think they are being stifled by 'sociable promos.' I regret that I can't congratulate everyone who deserves it, but if I invested the time it would take in this growing trend, I'd never have time to write anything again. In truth, I'd just as soon avoid the path of obligatory social interaction altogether.

Anyway, here's the suggestion: Divide the Forum into two segments, one titled "Announcements" and the other "Discussion."

Is that feasible?

Ann Bogle
Feb 28, 02:29pm

James, I hear you. When I fist joined Fictionaut in 2009, discussions at matchbook and sex, sometimes in the first line were nothing short of amazing. If that had been ALL we did, it would have been worth it from a craft and philosophical point of view. That something is published at a weblog magazine -- something I've been scrutinizing for my own reasons -- doesn't "prove" that it is now or will remain a realized piece of writing. In fact, some of the weblog-style publications are worsening the work. In other words, the design at Fictionaut is actually better than some of what I'm seeing at weblog publications, and I'd rather read the stories and poems where it pleases my eye and other sensibilities more. Also, there's a feeling of being distracted: come here, go there, not there, over here, here's the url, do this, do that. At the weblog magazines, there's less impulse to comment. I prefer Fictionaut to many of the magazines and alternate, less interactive sites I have visited, and I would appreciate it if the forums -- whether within the groups or in the general forums -- could be more critically active.

TOO.

I've noticed the ads at Fictionaut are not just for books anymore, but even for cel phones and business schools.

ADVERTISEMENT: I woke up this morning wearing black stockings and a black dress. There were black shearling heels next to my bed. I put on a black beaded sweater and made my coffee. Monday morning, day after the Oscars. Roll up my sleeves. Off I go to my home office where overnight I received an email invitation to send a piece of writing to a weblog magazine. THE END.

The editor wants me to send a poem or prose piece "sold" as a prose poem. I wrote back, "$?" I'll do it, despite the reservations I express (above) because it means "credit" in a way it has been decided that Fictionaut publishing does not mean that. [Serious questions ---> Why. Why.]

Thinking of content -- as with AOL and Huffington Post -- we are unpaid to add content to a website that is making money -- what to do next.

Jürgen Fauth
Feb 28, 06:23pm

A couple of things:

- I agree that it's a good idea to divide the forum into subforums dedicated to announcements, general literary discussion, discussion of the site itself etc. I think it's fine for people to link work they have published elsewhere (and I don't consider it "advertising"), but yes, there should be a special section for it.

- The ads we're serving come through LitSense, a network for literary sites -- it's all books, independent presses, and the like. 80% of ads you see are unpaid. There have never been ads for cell phones or business schools.

- We're working on plans to share our revenue with Fictionaut writers if and when the site becomes profitable. At the moment, the ads do not cover our operating costs -- hosting, sending of newsletters and emails, etc -- and that's not counting anyone's time.

Ann Bogle
Feb 28, 06:39pm

Jurgen, thanks for clarifying. I think you deserve an income from Fictionaut. Last night, I used my laptop to access Fictionaut, and the banner ads were for Nokia and UCLA. This is for real. I was using Internet Explorer to browse. I wish Fictionaut profitability and I'm working with another writer to develop projects that can be sustainable. I believe in it.

It has been difficult to sustain a thoughtful thread in recent months. Lighter threads gain momentum instead, and announcements are the basis of the general forum. I have seen other poetry-oriented venues go toward announcements, away from commentary and discourse. I write reviews, too, and topical discourse to me seems necessary. My idea for writing reviews is to write analysis rather than ad copy.

Is there a way to send a paid contribution to Fictionaut?

Jürgen Fauth
Feb 28, 06:49pm

Ann, I know the UCLA writing program is running an ad campaign, but I'm not sure where you saw Nokia.

I agree about the discussion threads in the forum -- the announcements are taking over and should have their own section. I'll see to it that we can get sub-sections added asap. Are there any topic-specific groups that might be more suited toward topical discussion at the moment?

We're always looking for quality contributions for the blog, but so far, no one is getting paid. Send me an email if you'd like to discuss further?

David Ackley
Feb 28, 08:06pm

The front page of the forum presently is an argument on behalf of separating announcements and discussion threads; at the moment, all but two topics, one of them this one, are devoted to Publication or other announcements. I proposed such a separation here several months ago, but maybe the problem had to reach critical mass before being addressed. I like(d) reading the discussions, and even when I didn't participate found the ideas always interesting and occasionally valuable. Since its difficult to locate discussions when they occur in groups unless you happen across one, the Forum seems the best place for them. A Bulletin Board is the proper venue for announcements.

James Lloyd Davis
Feb 28, 08:45pm

Again, my thoughts are neither a complaint nor criticism. The announcements are not a problem and on any writers' site, they are, along with relevant links, quite acceptable and to be expected.

My reason for bringing this up is that I believe a dual board, one for any kind of discussion ... and another specifically for announcements and links to published work ... would facilitate and maybe even foster relevant discussion.

David's input above, and the terminology for each of the two boards sounds good to me.

I have no qualms about Fn making money with advertisement. When I used the term advertisement, I was speaking of the nature of the announcements on the forum, which are, ultimately, an author's 'advertisements for myself,' and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. In fact, no author can afford to eschew self-promotion in times like these.

I just wanted to suggest a separate board for discussion. I'm glad it seems to be in the works.

Ann Bogle
Mar 01, 01:53pm

Jurgen asks (above) what topics Fictionauts might (willingly) (openly) (eagerly) (enthusiastically) discuss. Sex, but maybe without Gary Percesepe's lead, we are too modest? Earning money for writers. Someone who might lead in that might be someone who has earned money at writing. I'm wild for unions again, ever since before AWP and more recently due to events in Wisconsin and elsewhere nationally -- is Bill Pancoast in the house? -- and would like to help organize unions for creative writers. There is a writers' union affiliated with the auto workers, but I think in recent years their emphasis (at least in Minneapolis) has turned toward journalism. Are creative writers willing to pay money to read each other online? These are topics I'm exploring on my own and with another writer who once ran a company with 2,000 employees. Cooperatives. I spent a weekend researching a degree in applied economics at the U of Minnesota, where unions find their academic home; such a degree would take years to achieve. I wonder if there are applied economists (already credentialed) who might get involved in creative writing finance.

. . .

I have to state again that I was under a false impression that ads were generating profits for Fictionaut. I am sorry to have concluded that without knowing the facts.

David Ackley
Mar 01, 02:14pm

There were some very evocative and fruitful discussions of Flash in earlier postings. Definitional. But, as a novice practisioner, I'd love to see more of a form-oriented discussion of flash, What the form is able to achieve, what may be beyond it. Not to start it here, but just as a contribution to the quest for topics for Forum discussions.

I like to read writers espousing and debating ideas about the art.

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 01, 02:19pm

Writers' union. It's time, yes.

I was active in the Boilermaker's Union for years and am a great believer in the cause. For a time, I belonged to the NWU in Tucson, which is affiliated with the UAW. As Ann pointed out, it is geared more toward journalists and free-lance types who write non-fiction.

I would be interested in getting involved with a union for writers of fiction. It's bothered me how the expectation for income has dropped so low when so many people are reading fiction on the internet. Free content abounds.

Count me in.

Ann Bogle
Mar 01, 04:41pm

Got this from Bill Pancoast while at Facebook, where he is covering union news in the U.S. (he's a retired auto worker and published novelist):

"AWP was mentioned as functioning as a sort of union. Seems to me that the main impediment would be getting someone who has worked a lifetime to get his writing noticed to withhold that writing in a collective effort for wages, etc."

William Trent Pancoast
Mar 01, 04:56pm

While I'm at it: 1% of creative writers probably make 50% or more of the total pot. I doubt very much that a money-making novelist (as opposed to a "successful" one) would be willing to take a cut in pay to subsidize the wages of novelists who don't make money.
BP

William Trent Pancoast
Mar 01, 05:13pm

From the real world today:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/culturemonster/2011/02/arts-writers-declare-strike-against-huffington-post-1.html

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 01, 06:23pm

Aware that the task would be daunting, I am also aware of the history of the labor movement, of how difficult it was to convince even the workers who ultimately gained from the blood, sweat and tears of that movement, that there was a possibility that they could organize and accomplish the seemingly impossible tasks that lay before them.

Now that the 'trade' is in flux, at the moment when the publishing and book-selling industries face change of enormous proportion; now would be the time for the labor force, writers of fiction, to organize themselves and become a viable force in shaping that future, in getting their fair share of its financial reward.

Even a french fry technician deserves and receives compensation for his or her labor, why not an artist devoted to producing works of fiction, no matter what genre, no matter what length or form?

Tell me it can't be done. Tell me the very idea is absurd, and you give me a cause, a purpose in disproving the claim.

If anyone would like to discuss the possibilities, I'll be happy to place an item on this forum to initiate the conversation.

Jürgen Fauth
Mar 01, 06:24pm

Towards the end of her TOC keynote (which is amazing, if you haven't seen it), Margaret Atwood mentions a "United Artists of writers": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6iMBf6Ddjk

James Lloyd Davis
Mar 01, 07:40pm

Thanks, Jürgen, a brilliant address from Ms Atwood, one that every writer here should see.

Ann Bogle
Mar 01, 07:52pm

Agreed, that is an amazing and brilliant presentation. I watched it twice via FB not long ago. It's so striking that she uses her own childlike illustrations during the speech, as if to say she is new at technology and its implications, too. She was new then in her literal childhood and look what she became! A writer hero(ine).
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